Archive Part4
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MESSAGE: 1439 DATE/TIME: 11-01-88 7:14am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: TRACTOR BEAMS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
It's seems logical that the torps will go toward the tractoring ship,
but if there's an arming range, they may not explode. If they don't
explode, they may just whip past the target ship, and wander off into
space, maybe hitting another ship.
I did not mean to convey the impression that all the weapons WILL hit
the tractoring ship, rather that the only target the ship under tractor
Can fire at, is the tractoring ship.
(I think that last sentence made sense.....)
Bryan.
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MESSAGE: 1440 DATE/TIME: 11-01-88 7:21am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Tractors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn , (further note.)
It would make sense, however, that if a ship under tractor launched a
probe, that sucker would zip right up to the tractoring ship, (of course,
the resultant explosion might take out the tractored ship too....)
Bryan.
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MESSAGE: 1441 DATE/TIME: 11-01-88 4:19pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Tractors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
Ah yes, I see now. Actually it doesn't really seem to be much to
get excited about. I mean this extra use of a tractor beam might save
some lives on one of your ally ships that was being fired at, but only
if you could withstand the attack of the ship that you have locked a
tractor onto.
You know, maybe this would be an interesting strategy...
By tractoring another ship, that ship would not be able to fire torps at
ANYONE since the ship could not aim the torps elsewhere and since they
would be too close to you to do any damage. Of course probes would get
sucked right in as you said. But what if we could set the probes to
a range of 50 and just fire one of them. Then the tractored ship could
really give the tractoring ship a bad time.
It might make for an interesting tactic if the scenario was one where the
winner isn't always a sure thing for one side or the other.
I think I see what you mean now by sacrificing a small ship to get a big
ships torps out of the battle.
Boy, that would be an interesting fleet action.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1444 DATE/TIME: 11-03-88 1:22pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Sure is quiet THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Boy this board sure got quiet. What happen to all the interesting
debate?? Either everyone got there phone bill OR
everyone is waiting for 1.65 !!!
Doesn't anyone want to discuss how probes should be capable of locking
onto the nearest Plasma torp or something ??
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1448 DATE/TIME: 11-04-88 10:31am
FROM : SCOTT FOSTER RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: NEW ATTRIBUTES THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
We you asked so here it goes:
I) Shield reinforcment should be at the expense of available power and
directable in aefault distribution (as sug previousl.
II) Tractor beams would be great fun but at range /power requirementI
suggest a maximum range of about one half phaser range and a strength
commiserate with the available power outputthr tractor and the mass of
the tractee (do ships havmass in a warp environment ?) .
III) star baseaelluvan idea. this set up with arriving reinforcments
would be loads-o-fun. a major step toward a campaign game.
IV) beaming of survivors from crippled allies should be possilbe and
should effect your score (perhaps an increase of your damage control
ability) capturd ships should score big points (stolen technology) V
) more specific commands to your allies and better disipline on their par
part.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA this garbage is driving me crazy
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Save game command (time could be spent setting up situation that could
be replayed indefinately).
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MESSAGE: 1463 DATE/TIME: 11-08-88 2:24pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Saving Your Poor Dying Friends THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Scott Foster has come up with an idea I haven't seen before that
sounds really great! Beaming surivivors from crippled allies to your
own ship!
ÿ
In my multi-ship games, I always feel sorry for my allies that get
blasted, and I've always been a little disturbed that there was
practically nothing I could do for them, other than trying to blast
the ship that was blasting them.
ÿ
This idea brings something of the spirit of boarding along without
most of the problems that boarding represented. In the "technical
specs" in some of my ST literature, I seem to remember something along
the lines of emergency transporters that could beam something like 40
people at once. And really, the starship designers would have to put
SOMETHING like that in place. When you need to evacuate 450 people in
a hurry, a handfull of 5 place transporter platforms just isn't going
to do the job.
ÿ
Say that any ship has the life support capacity to sustain half
again as many people as the full compliment for that ship. So a
Federation Destroyer, with a compliment of 200 people, has room for a
total of 300. The only effect (other than the humanitarian aspect, of
course) on your ship is an increase in damage control efficiency. If
you had also suffered casualties, then each survivor would be
essentially a replacement. If that Destroyer has suffered 50
casualties, and he beams 50 people over from a crippled ship, then his
damage control efficiency is back to 100%.
ÿ
If, on the other hand, the total number of survivors will bring
the total number of people on your ship to a higher number than its
full compliment, then each survivor past the full compliment level
would count as one half a man, in regard to your damage control.
Thus, a Destroyer which has not taken any casualties that takes on 50
survivors would have a damage control efficiency of 112.5% (225
people).
ÿ
Personally, I think this sounds kind of fun. There isn't a great
deal of room for abuse if the limitations noted above were adopted,
since your absolute maximum efficiency would be 125%, and it adds a
very humanitarian aspect to the game, an aspect which most war games
(including Begin, at the present time) do not have. Captain Kirk
would be proud!
ÿ
Joe
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MESSAGE: 1466 DATE/TIME: 11-09-88 4:07pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe, et all
I like the beam over the survivors idea too. Tho¦xêìugh I think your
life support numbers are a bit too restrictive.
A ship the size of the Enterprise could easily double or triple the crew
complement if we are talking about just what the life support systems
could handle. Remember that the normal crew lives on that ship. But if
we are talking about an emergency, the ship could sustain life for many
more than the standard crew complement.
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MESSAGE: 1468 DATE/TIME: 11-09-88 7:35pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Yah! I like the idea. I don't like being restricted on how many
I can save though. Put them in the Shuttle Craft bay for all that
matters. I am quite sure that between the rec decs, bays, and
mess halls a heavy cruiser can support a 1000 people or so in a
crunch.
Tom
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MESSAGE: 1474 DATE/TIME: 11-11-88 2:46am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn, Tom, etc.,
ÿ
Glad everybody likes the idea. The life support numbers are, of
course, flexible. I was trying to be conservative, but I have no
problem with higher numbers. The only point in limiting the total
number is to put a cap on how far your efficiency can go up. Should
there be a limit?
ÿ
Just this very moment thought of a neat twist to this. Program it
such that the survivors can set the self-destruct mechanism just
before you beam them off! Like it!?
ÿ
Of course, the whole thing would be kind of tricky to do at the
best of times. You'd only probably use it in a fleet battle, and how
often are you within transporter range of one of your ships that gets
blasted?
ÿ
Are we still talking about ideas that will make it into a future
version? Does anybody know the current timeline of 1.65 and 2.0? The
manual?
ÿ
I'd sure like to see that manual.
ÿ
Joe
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MESSAGE: 1480 DATE/TIME: 11-11-88 12:52pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
As far as being within range of a ship in order to beam aboard the
survivors, I think that you should simply make it a point to go and
rescue them. The fact that there are more survivors should increase
your score.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1481 DATE/TIME: 11-11-88 12:55pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
As far as the number of survivors goes, the life support issue should
be dropped. I think any ship would be able to handle as many people as
can physically fit on the ship.
Efficiency levels of damage control is another story. There will be a
point where the extra people will begin to get in the way. Once
again though I think this level would not be reached unless the ship was
carrying maybe 3 times the normal crew complement.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1482 DATE/TIME: 11-11-88 1:59pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
ÿ
You're still going to have to set some kind of limit to the number
of people one ship can hold. I have no problem with this being a high
number. But I don't think life support is irrelevant. Perhaps the
energy required for life support should be displayed on the damage
screen, and perhaps this number should increase proportionately to the
number of people you bring on board.
ÿ
That's not really the important issue, however. The important
thing is how will the extra people affect your damage control
efficiency? I agree with your statement that at some point, simply
having more people will not increase your efficiency because those
extras will just get in the way. With that in mind, there seems to be
a need to have some kind of limit on the number of people that can
affect your efficiency. Either control the total number of people, or
say that a certain number of extras helps your efficiency, but numbers
beyond that limit have no effect at all.
ÿ
What do you think of my original idea of each person beyond the
full complement of the ship counting as one half a person in regard to
efficiency?
ÿ
Joe
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MESSAGE: 1483 DATE/TIME: 11-11-88 7:07pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: life support THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
The problem with assigning survivors to a damage control crew is going
to be a pesky problem. I do not feel that survivors from a damaged/
destroyed ship are going to contribute to the rescuing ship. The
reason I feel this way is because the survivors are going to be
suffering from injuries as well as fatigue. In addition, the survivor's
moral is going to be very low, as thier ship and friends had just been
blown to pieces. As a rescuing captain, I don't want a lot of mental
cases on board my ship attempting to help. I would probably order them
to Sickbay, then to a part of my ship that will put the survivors far
away from my crewmembers until this battle is over. Then I might
consider allowing the survivors to help with damage control after all
is said and done with.
Another reason I feel that survivors should make a difference in dmg
control is BEGIN is going to have to figure whether or not the survivors
are engineers, doctors, helmsmen, etc. If there are any, then those
survivors can help the regular damage control party that specialize
in a particular aspect of the ship. In short, figuring out who can
do what is just too much of a hassle. I would be happy if I rescued
a bunch of survivors and recieved some score bonus.
Tom Hackwood
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MESSAGE: 1485 DATE/TIME: 11-11-88 10:04pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: life support THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
ÿ
I think you're right when you express doubts about the survivors
ability to function as damage control crew. But remember, if you beam
over a hundred survivors, the certainly some of them are going to be
ok enough to help.
ÿ
Thus, the idea of having there be a penalty against survivors as
far as how they affect your efficiency. Previously, I had suggested
no penalty (1:1) up to the full complement of the rescuing ship, then
a 2:1 survivor-to-efficiency ratio for all thereafter. But it could
be any ratio. The point is that I think you've got to let survivors
count at least to a degree. I'm going to be more likely to take a lot
of trouble to rescue somebody if they're going to help more than my
score.
ÿ
Joe
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MESSAGE: 1490 DATE/TIME: 11-12-88 9:44pm
FROM : TONY TORTORELLI RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Tournemant THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom, I have convinced the games SysOp of a local BBS to start a
begin Tournament.
All are invited to join.
Call Gateways BBS 1-212-219-8824 and Join the games conference.
Date: 11-11-88 (12:31) Number: 825
To: ALL Refer#: NONE
From: BART LIDOFSKY Read: (N/A)
Subj: BEGIN, THE TOURNEY Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
I have my first tournament problem for Begin. I assume that you are
all using 1.6, if not, shame! shame!
The good guys:
Three federation dreadnaughts
The bad guys:
Nine (count 'em, nine!) Klingon frigates.
Ideally, I would like you all to upload your final screens (to a
message), but I will settle for just reporting the data. As there is no
prize, any dishonesty would be utterly stupid. The contest will be over
in one week (11/17/88), and then the winners will be asked to discuss
their winning strategies.
Bart
Hope to see some challengers from the West Coast!
ÕÍË͸
º ony
ÄÊÄÄÄÄ
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MESSAGE: 1497 DATE/TIME: 11-13-88 5:22pm
FROM : ALMA WETZKER RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Fed de vs Kli dn THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Has anyone ever noticed how simple it is to destroy a Klingon DN
with a Federation Destroyer? It can be done without taking ANY damage
at all. Unfortunately, your score for outwitting the computer is only
1.63. I just don't get it!
.
Maybe Tom or Mike can take ship SIZE into account in versions 1.65
and higher. (Hint, Hint) ;}
.
-- Alma --
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MESSAGE: 1498 DATE/TIME: 11-13-88 9:38pm
FROM : DAVID COULTHURST RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Add my "aye" vote to survivors!
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1503 DATE/TIME: 11-14-88 12:41pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
Very well, I think an appropriate limit to the number of people a ship
can hold is in fact 4 times whatever the normal crew complement of
the vessel is. In terms of life support, there can be an additional
strain added to the life support equipment which simply means that more
power would be required to run the thing. May be double or triple the
current power consumption at the maximun level of 4 times the standard
crew complement.
AS far as efficiency of damage control goes, I don't see why an
additional crew member wouldn't count as 1 whole person instead of half a
person. This would work up to about 175% efficiency. At this point the
additional people would not be helpful. At the point where the people
aboard begin to exceed 3 times the normal crew complement, the efficiency
starts dropping again at the same rate. It would drop to whatever level
the calculations work out to be. I don't think that it should drop below
50% or so.
I mean if something needs to be worked on, people can be asked to move
out of the way if need be.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1504 DATE/TIME: 11-14-88 12:52pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: life support THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
There is a lot of sense to what you are saying here. I don't think we
need worry about who the survivors are, in BEGIN we just lump the entire
crew together and call them DAMAGE CONTROL. So who they are (engineers,
doctors, lawyers) really doesn't matter too much.
While there will be some who are demoralized, that would be more true of
civilians. I think there would be many military types who would want to
participate in the battle in order to get even with the enemy.
I now see a reason for each additional survivor to count as only a
fraction of a whole person in terms of damage control... This would
take into account the fact that some of the survivors are injured.
This would make sense. If this is what you had in mind JOE, then I agree.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1506 DATE/TIME: 11-14-88 3:27pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Fractional Survivors THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
ÿ
In regard to your message to Tom Hackwood, yes, that's exactly
what I was thinking of in advancing the idea of survivors counting as
fractions. Not only to account for the wounded, but also for
non-specialists, and jobs where there just isn't room (or whatever)
for a bunch of people to work.
ÿ
As far as a ceiling limit of 4 times the crew compliment, well...
Seems a little high to me, but it doesn't bother me.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1510 DATE/TIME: 11-14-88 7:12pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn & Joe,
After looking in the earlier msgs, I noticed that it was suggested
that survivors not be '100%'. And Glenn, I agree...military types
would be much more resiliant than civilians. And given that a war
is going on, I don't see too many civilians on board a war vessel,
unless it is a diplomat or a special engineer.
Given all of that...I suppose I could agree that survivors would be
usefull in a damage control party, once everything has been cleared
by the captain and the section heads. Therefore I suggest that the
survivors not make an immediate impact on damage control. Delay the
impact for a turn or two. This time will allow survivors to take up
stations, as well as recieve orders.
As to the number of survivors allowed on a ship...I remember in the
Star Fleet Technical Manual said something about a 1000 or so people
could be housed in a Constallation class starship. Based upon that,
I would say that a Heavy Crusier can carry 3 times it's normal
complement of crew. Working on that I envision Escorts being mostly
engine, therefore can only hold 1.5 times it's crew. Destroyers can
hold 2 times, and a Drednaught should be able to hold 4 times it's
crew. Any more than suggested maximums would cause performance loss
(less power to engines, banks, tubes, shields, etc).
That should cover it....
Tom Hackwood
cc: Joe Trouba
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MESSAGE: 1513 DATE/TIME: 11-14-88 11:43pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
I'm glad you've changed your mind about survivors affecting damage
control. But I definitely think the ratio should be the same for all the
ships as far as the total number of people goes. It'll make things a lot
simpler.
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1519 DATE/TIME: 11-16-88 1:28pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe, and Tom,
Sounds good on the survivor issue. The reason I think a ship should be
able to hold a LOT more people than a normal crew is simply because this
is an emergency situation and we are not trying to provide living quarters
for everyone, we are just trying to evacuate a ship and save lives. We
should be able to sustain a large number of people for a short time.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 1522 DATE/TIME: 11-17-88 5:16pm
FROM : ALMA WETZKER RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Fed DD vs Kli DN THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn & Joe,
.
To explain the strategy for killing a Klingon DN with a Fed
Destroyer takes a little background information.
.
First: Speed in BEGIN is linear, with warp 1 moving the ship
100 (???) absolute.
.
Second: Torps have a full turn of movement before they arm.
.
Close with the DN at warp 9 (pick a speed you feel comfortable
with) loading and targeting all your weapons. When the computers
torps arm change course and maintain speed. (I toggle back and
forth at 30 degrees off base course) When you close to 2700 (???),
maintain distance by pursuing and changing speed. The prox on your
torps needs to be <= 150, I use a spread of 8 degrees. The DN will
slow to (2.9 < X < 4). You are more manuverable than he is, and can
change speeds faster. Stay on his tail, fire torps and maintain
distance.
.
You are clearly out of phaser range, and his torps (if he fires
them) won't arm until they are 300 or so BEHIND you. (traveling
2700 (???)) Wheras YOUR torps (traveling 3000 (???)) will arm
INSIDE his ability to phase them down (he usually burns his own
probes). {Warp 30 for the torps = 3000, Range = 2700, target
speed is Warp 3 = 300}
.
It takes several cycles to do, so you have to be patient. You
also need to be allert because he WILL try to get you OFF his tail.
Three out of four times I never take a shield hit.
.
Personally, I see no difference in this tactic from running and
dumping probes. Both take advantage of loopholes in the rules, or
the computers tactics, or both. In combat, weaknesses are made to
be exploited. This tactic exploits manuverability, and the myopic
zone that only the Romulans lack.
.
-- Alma --
cc: Joe Trouba
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1524 DATE/TIME: 11-17-88 5:19pm
FROM : ALMA WETZKER RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I really like the idea of picking up survivors. I'm not sure
about them increasing damage control much. The technology may be
the same but the magnitudes are different for different ship
classes. (The engines on an Interceptor may work on the same
principal as a DN, but the size difference should affect how the
well the new crew can repair it.)
.
Survivors are probably best used to capture an enemy ship, or
repair one that has lost life support. This would really make a
difference in a campaign game (are Tom or Mike listening?).
.
I really don't care if it affects the score at this point. The
current rating system just doesn't take enough factors into account
to produce meaningful results.
.
-- Alma --
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1526 DATE/TIME: 11-18-88 11:34am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
True, the ship could "sustain life" for many more people than are regular
crew, but at what point does the efficiency of the ship suffer?
Joe's limitation of an additional 50% seems fair, and offers the
advantage of being a clear limit.
I believe, however, that the crew that transports over would only add 1/2
a crew unit to damage control per crew unit transported. Think about it.
These folks have just had a ship shot out from under them, and may not be
from the same type of ship. (Destroyer crew on a Dreadnought.) Half
efficiency also takes into account the probability taht some of them are
going to be wounded...
That's my opinion. What's yours?.
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1528 DATE/TIME: 11-19-88 2:17am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
ÿ
I'm glad you agree with 50%. I think that is definitely
reasonable, whereas to go higher is certainly going to be questioned
by some people.
ÿ
But I'm not sure if I understand your position on how the
survivors count towards damage control. I think you feel that ALL
survivors count as one half person. I think this should be the case
for only the number of survivors above your ship's complement. That
is, if your ship had suffered 25 casualties, then the first 25
survivors you beamed aboard would each count as a full man. Any
additional people would then count as one half.
ÿ
I think doing it this way will serve as a kind of reward for
taking the effort of a rescue, which is not going to necessarily be an
easy thing to do. How often have you been close enough to one of your
allies to rescue him if he started getting blasted? By the time you
actually get there, it probably will be all over.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1532 DATE/TIME: 11-20-88 6:20pm
FROM : ERIC ODLE RECEIVED : YES
TO : TONY TORTORELLI PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Tournemant THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Ah. I am a new player and member of this BBS. I have had Begin for
awhile now and I am quite interested in it. I disagree with the
challenge of 3 fed dreadnoughts against 9 kli cruisers. A real survival
battle would be one fed dreadnought on 9 klingon cruisers and 1 klingon
dreadnought. I tried this! my score was 28.39. 3 frigates got away.
The rest were either destroyed or blasted so much that everyone died on
their ship. My ship was down to 15% efficiency. Is this Good? Is this
worth any competition? The Computer said that It would be an honor to
assign me to a fleet command. Not a bad Idea! I have some suggestions
for Begin that I will put in a later message.Also, I would like to join
this tournament, but I live in Danville. That is some Hard Hitting phone
bills!
-_-Eric
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1533 DATE/TIME: 11-20-88 6:40pm
FROM : ERIC ODLE RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Suggestions THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I have a few suggestions for Begin. First, I have found Begin to be the
same thing over and over again. Is there any way to change the outcome
and make it random every time? Just Battling isn't enough? Maybe you
could have Starbases to defend(Ones that also defend themselves) And
planets to pilfer and control if you were a klingon or Orion. And what do
the Romulans have? (I haven't the slightest Idea). And I like the idea of
sending salvage teams to lifless enemy ships to reactivate the life
support system and repair the ship for capturing or reuse.
Eric
(more suggestions in the future)
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1537 DATE/TIME: 11-21-88 8:17pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
I think this:
If I had lost 25 crewmembers, I then feel that the first 25 survivors
are worth about 75% (loss of orientation, different ship, unfamillarity
with the normal crew operating procedures, etc.) Any other survivor
above the normal complement would be worth about 50%. Other than that,
I agree...
Tom Hackwood
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1538 DATE/TIME: 11-21-88 9:23pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
ÿ
Picky, picky, picky <grin>. OK, I can live with that. 75%
replacement value up to full complement, 50% thereafter.
ÿ
Now the real question. Is this, or anything else that everyone
has discussed, going to be incorporated into anything? I'm beginning
to wonder.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1541 DATE/TIME: 11-22-88 1:05pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : ALMA WETZKER PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Fed DD vs Kli DN THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
ALMA,
You know, I am aware of the strategy you used there. I have tried that
very tactic and apparently you have never had the Dreadnought go to warp 1
or turn around. Your strategy suggests that the Dreadnought will always
run away. I have not had such luck as to get the klingon ship to run away
from my destroyer.
Are you using version 1.6 of begin ??
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1542 DATE/TIME: 11-22-88 1:17pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
I just think there is lots of room on a starship to put people. There
are REC rooms, bathrooms, labs, the gym, the garden, the cargo bays, all
the living quarters and most of the hallways as well. Only the hallways
would pose a hazard to the ship's functionality.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1545 DATE/TIME: 11-22-88 1:30pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well I certainly hope it would be in version 2.xx
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1546 DATE/TIME: 11-22-88 1:57pm
FROM : ERIC CRISP RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Does this mean you can fit 16 people in your car??
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1547 DATE/TIME: 11-22-88 2:22pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Fed DD vs Kli DN THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
ÿ
I've tried this situation also, and about 1 out of 8 times or so,
the DN will turn around. The rest of the time he just keeps going
away at 3.0-4.5. And I am using 1.6.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1554 DATE/TIME: 11-24-88 10:55am
FROM : JOHN HELMICH RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Battle THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I agree with the mixed battlefleets and boarding, also multiple commands
on one 'move'. I just finished reading Dreadnought, and thought the
situation interesting - a rebellion within starfleet (starfleet ships
battling other starfleet ships) Also, configurable degree of crew
knowledge (rookie crew stealing a dreadnought)
John H.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1558 DATE/TIME: 11-28-88 6:08am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
The reasoning for survivors not contributing at 100% efficiency towards
damage control is :
1- The crew may not have been in the same class of ship. The replacement
parts will not be where they expect them, and the systems may not be the
same type.
2- The crew just came from a smoking wreck. Some of them will be wounded,
so, even if you're at your max crew complement (with the new crew
elements), they will not be fully effective. As for the argument someone
had about these crew being fired up for vengeance, the reason they are
fired up is that they just climbed out of a blender.( so to speak.) Even
the unwounded crew shouldn't be at 100%. Maybe, if the program can
accomodate it, the game can include the numbers of healthy, and wounded,
crew elements when they are transported over. Then, after a time, the
computer can adjust the efficiency of the healthy crew, to show the
effects of thier acclimatization to the new ship. (seems like a lot of
trouble, for the programmers.)
So, I think the maximum efficiency from transported crew should be some
fixed number, at or around 50%.
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1559 DATE/TIME: 11-28-88 6:19am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
I agree that there is a lot of normally unused space on a ship. But, that
is space on a warship. Presumably, there is not an overabundance of
rec-rooms and the like. So limiting the added crew to a number like and
additional 100% of max crew complement seems, to me anyway, to be
reasonable.
One thing that would help me in making these decisions is knowing how
long an order pase is. Has that ever been decided by anyone? If the order
period is only a few seconds (10-60), then the max population of a ship
is relatively unimportant, and I'd be willing to go for 400% of max crew.
But, if the order phase is something like 10 minutes, then you have to
rest your operating crew (in most battles), so I'd like to stick with the
100% crew complement.
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1560 DATE/TIME: 11-28-88 9:43am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : ERIC CRISP PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I don't know where you got 16 people in my car from. My car makes no
attempt to provide living space for anyone. However since you mention
a car, let's say that 3 people could somehow sleep in it if all the
seats were put down or something. Actually two people could sleep and
someone else could still drive. In an emergency, I would try
to get 12 people in the car or in the trunk. This would be long enough to
get everyone to safety where I could transfer them to another vehicle.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1562 DATE/TIME: 11-28-88 9:59am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Fed DD vs Kli DN THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well shoot !!! Maybe that is what the Klingon vessel will do, so you
can just sit there and blow him up with torps, but I haven't had such
luck. It certainly exploits a weakness in the enemy strategy. After
once or twice though I think I would get bored with that idea.
I know if you move in closer and slug it out with phasers, probes, and
fancy manuevering, it is a lot harder and more exciting.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1567 DATE/TIME: 11-28-88 10:11am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
I think I remember that a turn in begin is only a few seconds.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1568 DATE/TIME: 11-28-88 10:14am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
One other comment, It may be a warship but it is also a starship, i.e.
research and exploration vessel. And everybody is going to get there own
bed !! They don't all have there own room, but they do all have there
own bed. And 432 beds is a lot of extra room.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1574 DATE/TIME: 11-29-88 12:37am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well, it seems that just about everybody has complained about the
way Begin handles scoring, but no one has leaped up with any ideas of
their own, so...
ÿ
As it is now, it seems that crew size is the major factor used in
scoring. But when you think about it, that really doesn't even come
close to accurately gauging the final outcome. A score of 1.63 when
you've just destroyed a Klingon Dreadnought with a Fed Destroyer is
ridiculous. I don't think anyone will disagree that the scoring needs
to be redone.
ÿ
It seems to me that there are three basic areas on a ship that
should be factored into the final score. One, the ship itself should
be worth something. Two, the number of systems on board that are
capable of being damaged, and three, the crew.
ÿ
So here's my idea. Take as an example a Klingon DN against a
Federation Destroyer. Say that the final outcome is that the Klingon
is totally destroyed, and the Fed doesn't suffer any damage at all.
ÿ
With the above situation, your score would be 630. If the ship
destroyed was only a Klingon Escort, your score would be -175.
ÿ
The score is made up the following way. A Klingon Dreadnought
weighs 275,000 kilotons. One point for every thousand kilotons, for a
total of 275 points. A Klingon Dreadnought has a total of 41 systems
that are capable of being damaged; 10 points for each system, a total
of 410 points. And finally, a K DN has 500 crew. 500 points. Added
up, a total of 1185. Then, subtract the value of your ship, which in
this case is 555. You come up with the score of 630. If the ship
destroyed is a Klingon Escort, you get a negative score, because the
total value of the ship is only 380. And it would be appropriate that
your score be negative in this case, because that's a pretty wimpy
matchup.
ÿ
Some may be wondering why I have points assigned for the ship and
the ship's systems separately. Easy. You only get the points for the
ship if you DESTROY the ship. If you blast the ship and kill everyone
on board, but don't destroy the ship, you only get points for the crew
and as many systems as you knocked out.
ÿ
Of course, any damage you may have taken will be subtracted from
your score. It seems to me that this method gives proportionate
weight to each of the areas that are important. The SIZE of the ship
will now become very important. And to get the best score, you'll
need to DESTROY the ship, not just leave a bunch of lifeless hulks
scattered around to foul up navigation.
ÿ
To save everyone the trouble, below is a table showing the stats
for all the ships:
ÿ
Federation Ship + Systems + Crew = Total
----------
Dreadnought 295 430 500 1225
Heavy Cruiser 190 340 450 980
Destroyer 85 270 200 555
Interceptor 70 250 105 425
ÿ
Klingon Empire Ship + Systems + Crew = Total
--------------
Dreadnought 275 410 500 1185
Battle Cruiser 150 300 350 800
Frigate 70 230 175 475
Escort 65 220 95 380
ÿ
Romulans Ship + Systems + Crew = Total
--------------
Frigate 75 240 160 475
Bird of Prey 150 260 275 685
War Eagle 50 200 115 365
ÿ
Orion Pirates Ship + Systems + Crew = Total
--------------
Anarchist 60 280 145 485
Saboteur 42 250 110 402
Raider 35 240 95 370
Assassin 20 190 45 255
ÿ
So? What does everyone think?
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1578 DATE/TIME: 11-29-88 11:59am
FROM : ERIC CRISP RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
You said 4 times the normal complement of people could fit on the ship.
Don't you think that this would overcrowd the ship a bit, causing
confusion and reduce the ships abilities to function?? YOu really think
you could drive Safely with 12 people in your car???
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1587 DATE/TIME: 11-30-88 7:42pm
FROM : DANIEL DEMAIO RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Version 1.6 Of BEGIN Trek Game THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
It is the best version of Sttar Trek I have yet encountered.... but
is the shareware version supposed to hang my system after winning
and losing? Sorry about sending to all this is my first connect to
this BBS my First ! I got BEGIN off of Compuserve.
I would like to get to Advanced manual and next version but I would like
to be reassured that the game won't hang on my Toshiba 3100 at the end
of every game. Neither CTLC or CTL Brk owrkd .... line is getting to me
Take care!
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1589 DATE/TIME: 12-01-88 11:32am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: survivors THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
I guess you're right. With order turns probably being only a few seconds
long, the effect of the additional crew on food, life support, and
sleeping quarters will be negligible during a scenario.
Maybe we should alter the additional room available according to race?
Everyone knows that each Federation crewmember has his own room, (with
adjoining bath), while, I hear, Klingon crew sleep almost stacked like
cordwood. (Klingons ships being rather short on luxuries...)
Then again, maybe just a fixed ratio is good enough.
Being a programmer, I can understand trying to limit the scope of the
changes to a running program.
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1590 DATE/TIME: 12-01-88 11:45am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
I don't have any major problems with the scoring system you suggested,
with the exeception of the destroyed vs. lifeless ships.
How about this?
If the ship is destroyed, you get the full points as you've
calculated.
if the ship is lifeless, and you've got the only ships left, you get
an additional percentage, 25 to 50, to reflect the intelligence and
systems you can salvage from it. If the enemy has the only ships left in
the area, you don't get the additional percentage.
Whaddya think?
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1591 DATE/TIME: 12-01-88 11:51am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: scoring THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
(clarification)
The additional percentage would be calculated only on the points based
on ship size, not systems and crew.
Bryan.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1595 DATE/TIME: 12-01-88 4:58pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : ERIC CRISP PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Eric,
I said I would put 12 people in my car to drive them out of an emergency.
e.g. if they stayed behind, they would be burned by molten lava.
What would you do ?? Driving the car safely has little to do with saving
peoples lives. If that is all you can do then you simply make sure that
you
can drive the car out of there. That's what "heroes" do
anyway.
Also, I don't consider a car the same comparison as a starship. I told
you that my car does not have beds in it.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1596 DATE/TIME: 12-01-88 5:10pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan ,
I think I agree with your suggested change.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1597 DATE/TIME: 12-01-88 5:14pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
You should also get points just for plain old winning the battle !!
A Dreadnought defeating a wimpy ship should still have a positive score
eventhough it may be 1 point. This way we can tell simply by looking
at the score if you won or lost.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1600 DATE/TIME: 12-02-88 12:54am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
ÿ
I guess there's just something about me that gets more
satisfaction from destroying a ship as opposed to just killing
everyone on board.
ÿ
I suppose what your suggestion revolves around is the potential
value of salvaging the hulks. I can see arguments on both sides of
this issue. But salvage doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that
warships commonly do. Personally, I feel that a captain would be more
likely to destroy the ship so as to avoid navigation hazards. I doubt
that he would risk members of his crew on a blasted hulk.
ÿ
So I guess the issue to be decided is: is a ship worth more points
as a hulk or being destroyed?
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1601 DATE/TIME: 12-02-88 12:55am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
ÿ
Why? A Dreadnought against an Escort? Give me a break! Why
should you get anything at all for such a ridiculous overmatch?
ÿ
If a score of 1.63 is ridiculous when a Fed Destroyer takes out a
Klingon DN, then the reverse should be equally true. Given an
intelligent commander on each side, the destroyer has almost NO
chance.
ÿ
I guess I can see your point, however. Getting a negative score
when you win probably would take some of the fun out of it. How about
this? If you win the battle, no matter what the matchup is, you get a
straight bonus of, say, 300 points. If it were handled that way, then
if you gave yourself mildly favorable odds, you would still have a
positive score. If it was a joke matchup (17 DN's against an Escort,
for example), then I think a negative score is appropriate.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1606 DATE/TIME: 12-02-88 12:00pm
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
The idea behind more points for hulks than expanding clouds of gas
is that it is possible for the victorious fleet/ship to glean some
information from the ship. Remembering that this is a simulation of
tactical combat, and that the people who (generally) run these things are
in the profession of winning (or at least, avoiding mutual destruction),
the data (possibly) available should make a hulk worth more.
Of course, this point assumes that if you prove yourself well enough in
the simulator, you'll eventually get command of a ship or fleet.
Most of the time, the antagonists will be looking to avoid conflict, and
so the simulator provides the necessary experience combat commanders need.
Bryan.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1607 DATE/TIME: 12-02-88 12:08pm
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
How about this?
If the player is not out-gunned (or out-pointed) the best he can do is
the value of the opposing ship/s. I think any of us can win just about
any battle where we have superior force. (Can anyone come up with a no
win scenario, where the player has the advantage?)
Perhaps, we should limit the score (in this case) to 1/2 the opponent's
value, or 1/2 the difference between your value and his. Some way to
prevent a high score if the player has the edge.
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1608 DATE/TIME: 12-02-88 6:52pm
FROM : ERIC ODLE RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Tournemant THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I was talking about one dreadnought on 9 frigates.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1609 DATE/TIME: 12-03-88 12:15am
FROM : ERIC CRISP RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Survivors and other things THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Ok..forget my example then...
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1611 DATE/TIME: 12-03-88 1:35am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
I'm afraid I just can't see it. The only reason I would risk any
of my crew on a boarding mission is if I KNEW that there was something
REALLY special on the target ship to find out about. Of course, even
if there was, I would probably have destroyed whatever I was after in
the course of weakening the target enough to board it in the first
place!
I guess the problem I have with hulks being worth more points is
that you're assigning potential value to something that is almost
certainly not going to be part of the game. I recognize what you're
saying about the opportunity to gain technology, but if that potential
gain isn't going to be incorporated into the game, who cares?
But to be honest, while I am trying to be logical in arguing
against what you're saying, the main reason I want scoring to be
higher for destroying a ship is because I have much more fun
destroying a ship than just killing everyone on board!
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1623 DATE/TIME: 12-05-88 10:06am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
Perhaps it takes MORE talent to kill everyone on board a ship and still
leave something to salvage, than it does to probe a ship until it is
blown to atoms.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1624 DATE/TIME: 12-05-88 11:02am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Navigation hazards? Space is really big, and I have all these nifty
sensors and stuff on my ship to make sure that I don't accidentally
ram a rock (or gutted starship) at Warp 5. Besides, I'm sure my
engineering people are just dying to get a look at all of that alien
technology, and the military Intelligence people even moreso. (Even if
it is half melted)..
JB
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1626 DATE/TIME: 12-05-88 1:34pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
There should NEVER be a negative score, unless you have overwhelming
odds on your favor...and LOST.
Seventeen DN vs 1 ES should result in a positive (yet microscopic)
score, and an insult to the person choosing such a scenario. For
training, 17 DN vs. an ES might be usefull, the trainee can learn
how to use the ORDER command....
Tom Hackwood
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1627 DATE/TIME: 12-05-88 1:37pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
A captured ship is worth something in just resources alone, therefore
a captured ship is worth some sort of an increase in the player's
final score...I agree with you.
Tom Hackwood
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1631 DATE/TIME: 12-05-88 5:24pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joey,
My comment has nothing to do with capture and boarding. I think that
has
its good points and bad points. My comment was on the point value of
blowing up a ship vs. towing the hulk away ( capturing it). I
suggested that leaving a hulk there to capture was worth more then
totally obliterating it.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1641 DATE/TIME: 12-07-88 5:09am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
I can see your point. Maybe we could limit the bonus points to the
Orions (who need all the help they can get...)
Ican also sympathize with your other statements. There's nothing quite
like the feeling you get when you hear "Captain, the only thing on the
sensors is debris."
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1647 DATE/TIME: 12-09-88 6:42am
FROM : SCOTT FOSTER RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Scoring THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
If you've any doubt as to the value of slavaged ships
Look up the history of the naval battles of of the Russo-Japanese war
the Japanese provided themselves with the hulls
for several new battleships, cruisers, and aircraft carriers
from the remains of the Russian fleet.
I believe that hulks towed off the battlefield should
dramatically increase the score.
Also, I would like to have more comment and options at the end of
the game, I would like, a chance to savor the victory.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1666 DATE/TIME: 12-14-88 3:43pm
FROM : HUGH NORTH RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Hi! I'm Hugh North, and I am a real fan of your BEGIN series... I know
I have not sent in my 10 dollars yet, but when I get it (being 15 and
broke ain't nice!) I will. I'm really new here, and I don't know much
of what is happining... I do have several ideas for the next couple
BEGINS...
1. Customize Races & Ships - Put in a sub-section of the Setup...
call it, oh, EXPLORATION or something like that and allow the user to
create new races and ships. Have seperate data files for them, so we
can exchange our creations. You could set up a special files section on
this BBS even...
2. Allow for planets, stars, etc. I don't have any idea how this may
be done, but it would be nice. Then, using the EXPLORATION sub-section,
you could build actuall races & their home galaxys - then when you
start up, you pic a home-made galaxy, and a race to go with it, and
then you could choose to defend a particualr place - such as your home
planet...
3. Arrange for the enemy to have a actuall MISSION - not just one of
kill'em all... but say, have an option letting you TARGET the enemy
fleet during setup, say a selection of a bunch of missions ranging from
pursue and destroy to find a planet and take it out (an Idea for a ship
class - PLANETBUSTER - only good on planets, bulky, slow, needs mucho
defense by excorts, etc.)
4. Arrange a scoreboard of some type so you can have a listing of
what you have done in the past vs. what you do now.
5. Arrange a way to have 2 races help eachother out verses others -
Do you know of the computer game EMPIRE? Something like that using the
begin as a basis - Randomly designed galaxys with yoiu starting out in
on area...
6. I nknow most of these ideas are really far from the basis of
begin, but it would be neat... I do have ONE small addition though...
how about a ship that can repaire others in combat? Or have them dock
and be quickly repaired...
I'm just brainstorming on paper here... if anything sounds even
remotly interesting please write me!
Hugh North
or:
Commander John Darkwind,
Imperial Forces, Northwind Enterprises
cc: Mike Higgins
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1697 DATE/TIME: 12-30-88 11:57pm
FROM : DAVID COULTHURST RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: The Scoring System THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well, I've been too poor to call for some time now, but some things
never change. Case in point: The discussion concerning the Scoring
System. I'm glad to see Joe Trouba, Glenn Ironhat, and Brian
Donaldson (and others whose names my log didn't catch) have been
working on solving the problem. I've got a few ideas of my own and
I'd like everybody's opinions on them.
First and foremost in the scoring system should be a consideration of
whether or not it was a successful mission or not. There has already
been a lot of posting on the idea of including missions as part of
v 2.xx of Begin, and I definitely feel there is a need. I've got
another message on mission ideas that follows this one.
Second, I really like Joe Trouba's treatment of Ship & System values.
There is definitely value in both the crew's lives and the ship's
itself. Lives are lives and ships are huge and valuable life saving
pieces of equipment that are difficult to build and repair.
With these two items in mind, take a look at this scoring system:
Item Score (cumulative for each item)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mission accomplished (JT's S&S ratio) x Mission Value
Surviving allies S&S points
Destroyed allies S&S points x -1
Allies captured by enemy S&S points x -2 (-4 for Rom, Or)
Enemies that survived S&S points x -1
Enemies that ran away S&S points x .5
Enemies that are destroyed S&S points
Enemies captured S&S points x 2 (4 for Rom, Or)
Mission unsuccessful S&S ratio x -1/(Mission Value)
note: captured allies (enemies) do not count as surviving allies
(enemies).
All of the above point totals are resolved and added together. Then
they are compared to a standard scale. The higher the score the
better. This system allows for both the difficulty of the mission
and the difficulty of the odds against you. It also includes
responsibility for the state of you and your allies.
Well, what does everybody think?
DAC
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1698 DATE/TIME: 12-30-88 11:59pm
FROM : DAVID COULTHURST RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Missions for Begin THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
In my previous message, I mentioned the idea of including missions
in Begin 2.xx as being a great idea. Well here's some ideas I've
been tossing around.
Missions should have a direct bearing on the score you recieve.
Just destroying the enemy (unless that WAS your mission) will not
be enough to please your admirals if the planet you were supposed
to protect got devastated while you were out making kills. That's
one example, other arguments can be made in the case of each
mission's individual aspects.
And speaking of missions, here's a few ideas:
1) Destroy the enemy
2) Capture an enemy ship
3) Destroy a starbase
4) " " convoy.
5) Board and return from any of the above.
6) Protect a convoy
7) " " ship
8) " " starbase
9) Destroy a key enemy ship
10) Delay an enemy task force (line of probes would slow him)
11) Run a gauntlet (good for pirates)
12) Survive!
13) Reconnaissance (stay within 2000 of a target for 10 turns)
14) Thwart enemy mission (known or unknown? recon to find out?)
15) Rescue survivors from ________
16) Destroy enemy survivors before enemy can rescue them
Any other ideas?
DAC
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