Archive Part2
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MESSAGE: 961 DATE/TIME: 09-09-88 10:32am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: 1 Fed Heavy vs. 4 Kligon BC's THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Someone recently suggested a "run away & shoot" scenario between 1 Fed CA
nad 4 Klingon BC's (the "Kobiashi Maru" )...to illustrate the power of
the "fleeing" ship, I played this one with the following results :
Cromoer-0
Mulicron-95
Zantha-<destroyed>
Derango-<destroyed>
Constitution-450
Rating-12.43
The Mulicron was the first ship I hit, and it fell away from the chase
with badly damaged warp engines. My most extensive damage occured during
the mop-up operations (my front shield dropped to 13%), when I was
chasing down the fleeing,damaged Klingons. The moral of the story is -
don't continously run. It's too easy to win big that way.
Regards,
Joey Browning
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MESSAGE: 967 DATE/TIME: 09-12-88 9:42am
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well, how do they work? Do you just send X number of guys over and
they fight by themselves? Do the most guys always win? I am putting
this in the game so I need some help from out there.
Do you have to drop a shield to send them? Should pirates fight the
best? How many guys can you send?
Thanks,
Mike
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MESSAGE: 968 DATE/TIME: 09-12-88 3:54pm
FROM : ERIC CRISP RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I think that the boarding party should have to be beamed aboard the ship
and thus the shield that is facing the ship would need to be dropped. As
for how many men should go, that would probably depend on how large a
ship you had..
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MESSAGE: 970 DATE/TIME: 09-14-88 1:46am
FROM : ROB GREENBERG RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
My opinions on boarding parties:
1) Just send the guys over and they fight by themselves.
2) The most guys don't always win. The most guys should have a larger
chance of winning than the ship guys. There should be modifiers to
increase the fighting of the desperate defenders (that are more familiar
with the
design of their ship), and racial modifiers (Klingons are fiercer than
Federation people, Orions are the best of all due to their experience).
3) Do you have to drop a shield to send them? Of course! They have to
be beamed over. Of course, you'll need a teleporter on your ship -- that
can be damaged in combat.
4) How many guys can you send? Figure out how many it takes to run a
ship effectively in a combat situation, and then subtract from the total
to yield the number of 'available personnel'. Perhaps a certain
percentage of these people are security people that could be beamed
over...
Rob
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MESSAGE: 971 DATE/TIME: 09-14-88 8:32am
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : ROB GREENBERG PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Good thoughts on Boarding Parties. I am coming up with the hand-to-hand
formulas now. I think that this may give the pirates an edge...
Mike
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MESSAGE: 977 DATE/TIME: 09-15-88 4:23pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Mike,
You must lower a shield. One of the three that are facing the enemy
ship. It does not have to be the shield that is most facing the ship.
.
They fight by themselves but they are heavily armed and surprise the
enemy. I think that if they outnumber the enemy, then they should
almost always win.
.
Security guards should fight the bset since they were trained for this.
When diciding how many to beam over, there should be a distinction
between soldiers and technicians. The techies will actually repair and
run the ship.
.
How are you going to do the repair equations? It needs to be practical
else if a ship took forever to repair, why beam over?
.
I mentioned this before... It seems a little strange to spend all your
energy trying to blast a ship apart, and then beam over a bunch of people
to try and capture and repair it. Or is capture the only goal here?
Do we get points to capture a ship ? Or are we trying to bring it into
the battle on our side ?
.
Glenn I.
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MESSAGE: 978 DATE/TIME: 09-15-88 11:21pm
FROM : DAVID COULTHURST RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: 1 Fed Heavy vs. 4 Kligon BC's THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
That is one draw back of the 1 fed CA vs. 4 Klingon BC's: Sometimes one
single critical blow will seal the Klingon's fates immediately. If that
blow doesn't occur, and providing the Klingon's aren't of the orion
(chicken) variety, you are still in for quite a dogfight.
DAC
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MESSAGE: 979 DATE/TIME: 09-15-88 11:24pm
FROM : DAVID COULTHURST RECEIVED : YES
TO : ERIC CRISP PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
BOTH ships should have to have their facing shields down. Then the
battle could work something like this: each boarding party (offensive or
defensive) has a set % chance of killing an enemy boarding party. Combat
could be simultaneous, or the defender could get the first shot. This
should happen each cycle until one side has no boarding parties left.
After defensive boarding parties are gone, the offensive boarding parties
could attack crew until their number is sufficient (more than equal?) to
take over the ship.
I do think Orions should have some boarding party advantage, as
should Klingons, or other aggressive nations. Maybe this could be in the
form of a better attack percentage, or better numbers.
DAC
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MESSAGE: 980 DATE/TIME: 09-16-88 6:47am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
How about giving each ship a certain number of "marines" that are used
only for boarding actions and defence aganist same. These marines will
take casualties from ship damage in porportion to the regular crew. Also,
how about a "request surrender" option. I don't think that the Feds
should be forced to kill eveyone on a hopelessly damaged vessel just
because you can't ask them to surrender.
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MESSAGE: 981 DATE/TIME: 09-16-88 12:49pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
The marines suggestion is fine. I pictured the security personnel as
that.
SURRENDER?? What nation in star trek ever surrendered ? Certainly not
the klingons, romulons, or the orions. They have been captured a few
times when they were forced to, but they never surrendered willingly.
Glenn
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MESSAGE: 982 DATE/TIME: 09-16-88 12:54pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : DAVID COULTHURST PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
David,
I think that the nation doing the boarding should have the advantage
regardless of who they are. Picture this...
Your ship is blasted to pieces, over half your crew is dead. How
effective can you be in defending against an armed enemy ready for any
conflict and intent on taking over the ship ?
I really don't think the defenders have much chance.
As far as both ships having shields down I think it is a given that the
blasted ship would have shields down.
Glenn.
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MESSAGE: 983 DATE/TIME: 09-16-88 1:50pm
FROM : ERIC CRISP RECEIVED : YES
TO : DAVID COULTHURST PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I agree, both ships shields should be down...
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MESSAGE: 984 DATE/TIME: 09-17-88 8:05am
FROM : PATRICK MCCURDY RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Boarding Parties THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I fully agree with Joey Browning. If boarding parties are a common
thing in space battles, then almost all ships would have a certain number
of men (marines) either for offense or for defense.
A ships captain also might be able to prepare for an enemy BP by
giving some cammand such as "defend BP" thus increasing his defensive BP
chances.
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MESSAGE: 986 DATE/TIME: 09-17-88 11:02am
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: marines THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I agree that both ships need the shields down. But I also think that the
marines that go over to caputure the ship MAY NOT BE SUCESSFUL.
If this happens, could a the capturing ship try again? I would say yes,
as longg as there are marines to send over. This also brings up
another question...how many people does a ship have to do the capturing?
Obviously an escort or an interceptor won't have many, but a dreadnaught
has a full complement of marines for this purpose.
My other question is: what do we do with the ships we capture?
Realistically, I don't think that if a Federation HC captures a Romulan
Frigate that the boarding party will know how to use the plasma torps
effectively (or at all). It is my opinion that a captured ship is
a "dead" ship. We get extra "points" for the capture, but the ship
is effectively out of combat.
I just thought of another problem. Say a FED captures a Kligon Dread.
Can the Klingons try to re-capture it? I should think so. It makes
the game more interesting.
Thanks for reading,
Tom
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MESSAGE: 991 DATE/TIME: 09-19-88 11:53am
FROM : VERNON WIGGINS RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Boarding Parties THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
My opinion on boarding parties :
1: Boarding party combat should be favored to the defender. Any good
commander will know when he can expect to be boarded. (and hence, be
prepared)
2: Boarding parties should be able to prevent self destruction, and
(possibly, based on ship type) cause it.
3: BP's should be able to operate the ship enough to maneuver (if capable)
and raise shields. Any more should require more time than the BP will
have( in the scenario)
Surrender of ships should be possible. Many's the captain would rather
spend time in an interment camp, than infiny as interstellar debris. (of
course, chances of doing this would be racially modified.)
Looking forward to the possiblity of designing/flying the Kzin. I've long
said they're an underrated race in SFB. (drone over-run verrry effective.)
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 992 DATE/TIME: 09-19-88 12:01pm
FROM : VERNON WIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : TONY TORTORELLI PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: SFB THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tony, don't dive up on SFB because of complexity. There's many advantages
to being able to see your opponent's face while playing. (when your torps
blow thru the dwon shield, etc)
The players in SFB should agree on what rules to use. And who says you
have to use all the variations and addendums. You can buy them, if you
want, but don't have to use them.
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MESSAGE: 993 DATE/TIME: 09-19-88 12:05pm
FROM : VERNON WIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Retreating THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Retreating isn't all bad. Remember the Kaufman Retrograde?
(Fed ship retreats while lobbing photons. His photons damage didn't
decrease with range.)
Kaufman hard to do in Begin, but it's possible to do it.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 995 DATE/TIME: 09-19-88 4:37pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Everyone and anyone,
.
Someone please tell me why you want to capture a ship that is blasted
to pieces. The only way you will be able to get aboard is if the ship
cannot raise its shields. Also, would you risk your crew boarding
an enemy ship unless there were only a few survivors left on board that
ship ?
Why are we doing this ? Is it just to get a High score ? You couldn't
possibly beam over a boarding party, capture or kill the crew, repair the
ship, and use it in the battle !
Is this for a campaign game ? I am really interested in your comments.
If we could save games and restore them, then boarding parties would be
more interesting !! But this approaches a campaign game scenario
anyway.
Glenn.
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MESSAGE: 996 DATE/TIME: 09-19-88 7:18pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
If both the campaign game and save game is implemented, boarding parties
(actually capture of enemy ships) is a good idea. It allows for greater
scores (as it should be VERY hard to capture a ship), and a new dimension
to the current game. However, I feel that once the ship is captured
(and remains in ally hands), it should be useless as an offensive weapon.
.
As to who has the advantage of attemping to capturing ships, it
should depend on how damaged the defending ship is, and how damaged
the capturing ship is. If the defending ship is severely damaged, and
a large contingent (say 100) of security/marines is transported over,
then the advantage should belong to the boarders. Given an equal
chance (numbers and/or damage) then and only then should the defenders
have the advantage.
.
Before I finish, let me say that I think that boarding parties/capturing
ships is only relevent in LONG games or in campaigns. I don't think
that BEGIN is supposed to be a computer port of SFB. I don't even
think is SHOULD be. I play SFB on rare occasions, and enjoy the game,
but I also think that BEGIN should be a game by itself. Incorperate
SFB ideas (I for one would like to see a Hellbore) and from other games
(a quadrant type of display from the original TREK for campaign games)
is what I suggest.
.
Tom Hackwood
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MESSAGE: 1001 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 1:19am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Hi everybody!,
So much to say, and only 150 lines...ah well.
After reading all the messages on the system so far, I see three major
areas that I feel need addressing...
1. PROBES
Why in the world would anyone want to limit the number of probes
available? I can see the point of view that running like crazy and
dropping probes constantly might not be considered truly sporting, but
who cares? If you don't like that approach, don't use it. Personally, I
get a great kick out of seeing 9 Klingon Dreadnoughts blow up all at
once.
But that's not really the point. If the concensus of the programmers
is that they wish to limit probes in some way, then do it this way. A
ship starts off with a certain number of probes ready made, but more can
be created! What are probes, anyway? Almost certainly some form of
anti-matter. Ok, fine. How many times have we seen Scotty DRAIN
anti-matter from the warp engines? The hardware of a probe can't
possibly be so big or bulky that a Dreadnought couldn't carry HUNDREDS of
casings. So, a probe can be created by draining, say, 1% from the warp
engines. Since the engines will regenerate over time, an unlimited
number or probes can be created at the cost of maximum and cruise speed.
2. BOARDING PARTIES
You've got to be kidding. If you look at it strictly in a NON-campaign
style, there is only one reason to board another ship, and that is if you
can make immediate and effective use of their technology. You don't want
the ship itself. If you're able to board it, then it's already very
close to a blasted hulk, and there's no way that it's going to be an
effective offensive weapon in the near future. And meanwhile, while
you've got troops aboard the other ship, what happens to your damage
control? I can't see a scenario where you wouldn't sacrafice damage
control efficiency. I personally want my ship at full readiness at all
times possible, and I'm not going to sacrafice that readiness unless I'm
going to gain something. And the only thing I see to gain is their
technology. If I can board a Romulan War Eagle and pull their shield
generators and install them in my own ship, or at least pull the design
and institute it in my ship in a reasonable amount of time, then HELL
YES, board that sucker. But why else would you want to? And if you
agree with that point, then that means the only ships worth boarding are
Romulan ships, since everybody else's weapons, engines, and shields are
essentially similar.
3. SHIELD REINFORCEMENT
This is a tricky one. Yes, I think you should be able to do it. If
Begin is trying to be at all faithful to the original series, then I
don't see that you can really question that. We've seen Kirk do it too
many times.
I like the idea I've seen that a shield can only be reinforced to
double it's current state (i.e. a 30% shield can be reinforced to 60%),
but you've got to pay for it somewhere. How about this...
Shields can be individually and/or collectivly reinforced from the
warp engines, reactors, or batteries, or any combination of those three.
So take that 30% shield as an example. You draw power from the warp
engines and reinforce it to 60%. That means that 30% is coming from the
shield generator itself and 30% directly from the warp engines. Now say
that the shield is hit, and that the hit would have dropped a
NON-REINFORCED shield to 20%. The shield generator is blown out of the
water and the WARP ENGINES get nailed for the other 10%! That makes you
pay for reinforcing rather dearly. And it means that the lower your
shields are, the more risk you're taking in reinforcing them in the first
place, which is as it should be, since if your shields are getting really
pounded, then you're already in trouble.
I wouldn't make the damage to the selected reinforcement system
automatic, but probably a random amount based on the percentage of the
hit that the system was forced to absorb (call it some kind of energy
back pressure). So maybe you'd be lucky and then again, maybe you
wouldn't.
So, am I totally crazy? What does everybody else think? Begin is
such an incredibly good game, I'm glad to see that it's getting all this
attention from so many people. It deserves it!
Live long...
Joe
cc: Tom Nelson
Mike Higgins
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1004 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 10:20am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
RE: boarding parties....
RIGHT ON !!
I'd much rather see a "STATUS INCOMING" display then boarding parties.
: RE: shield reinforcement...
The idea you comment on was mine. I think that it could work that
way i.e. reinforcement to only double the shield capacity, OR the other
method that I descibed.
I still don't like the idea that shield reinforcement lasts only one
cycle. I think it would be a good idea to play test the shield
reinforcement enhancement and see what works best.
Glenn.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1005 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 10:26am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
OH yeah PROBES...
Probes have to have some kind of warp capable engine which would be
big compared to the warhead. Also, where do they get the power to
accelerate when they change course. I think it should be from the charge.
Thus the charge would get weaker the farther the probe travelled and
the more it changed velocity. I think this would solve the run away and
drop probes problem that many are complaining about. Though I tend to
agree with you that if you don't like it then don't do it.
However the subject of meaningful scores comes up. If someone can do
that to get a big score, then the comparing absolute scores is
meaningless. I guess we could rate each scenario first by looking at
the number and type of each ship. The compare scores of similar
scenarios.
Glenn
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1007 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 6:00pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
RE: Boarding Parties...
You didn't comment on the idea of acquiring the other ship's
technology. If this idea wasn't allowed, then I think we're in total
agreement on the subject.
-------------------------
RE: Shield Reinforcement
I took a look at your message again and realized that my comments on
the subject weren't breaking much new ground, with one exception. You
didn't discuss what happens to the system supplying the reinforcement if
the shield gets hit for more than what the non-reinforced shield is worth.
Don't you think you should be putting that system at risk if you're
using its power to punch up your shields? I do. And the main argument
about shield reinforcement seems to be that it should have to be costly in
one form or another. Well, if the warp engines have a possibility of
getting blown if you're using them to keep your shields up at a decent
level, the POTENTIAL cost is enormous!
That's why I don't agree that you should only be able to reinforce for
one turn. If you could only do it for one turn, then they would HAVE to
institute the concept of a Status Incoming screen, because otherwise it
would be a total guessing game as to which turn you should reinforce for.
On the other hand, if you didn't have a limit, and you tried to
reinforce constantly, one of two things would happen. You would either
constantly be cutting your max and cruise speed (never a great idea) or
you wouldn't have any weapons being reloaded because all your reactor and
battery output would be going to the shields.
One of the great things about this whole idea though, as you've
mentioned, is that it finally would give the batteries a role in the game.
Like you've said, as things stand now with 1.6, if you need your batteries,
it's only going to be a couple turns till you are going to need to be
reincarnated.
--------------------------
RE: Probes
You bring up the point of the probes propulsion. While I think there
is a danger in getting mired into too much realism, I will concede the
point that probes should probably make more sense than they do now. Look
at it this way. Anti-matter is powerful stuff. Remember the episode with
the energy sucking blob thing, the creature that smelled like honey? They
blew him up with anti-matter that they fit into a container that was maybe
two feet tall and maybe a foot in diameter. Along with the creature, it
also took out HALF the PLANET'S atmosphere. Powerful stuff indeed.
So how about this? The warp drive for the probe is extremely small and
compact. It is not built to last for years, it is built to last for one
battle. This hypothesis will allow any ship, particularly a Dreadnought,
to carry a great number of them. They are then filled with anti-matter
drawn from the warp engines (which will decrease your max and cruise, a
substantial penalty). The drive on the probe then draws its power from the
anti-matter. I submit that there is enough energy in anti-matter to power
the little sucker damn near forever, so I don't think it's realistic to say
that the reason the probe eventally dies by itself is that it's out of
power. Rather, the warp drive on the probe burns out. I will leave it to
someone else to say whether the probe explodes at that point or simply
cannot move any longer (personally, I'd vote for the latter, but then you'd
have the programming problem of keeping track of millions of dead probes).
Say at warp 2 it'll last for 20 cycles, at warp 3, 10 cycles, at warp 1, 40
cycles and so on. Doing it this way also easily incorporates the idea of
using probes as mines. At warp 0, the warp engine on the probe isn't being
used, and so logically, it can never burn out.
So, what do you think? What does everybody else think?
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1010 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 8:07pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
About probes...I like the idea of setting a speed, and the life
expectacy of the probe decreases with each increase of speed.
I don't necessary believe that probes are anti-matter though.
I figure that probes are some sort of nuclear weapon. Every
time someone mentions an
'anti-matter probe' I get vision of DC's Infinite Earths
series. Anti-matter is TOO beefy in pure form.
.
I never said anything on shield re-inforcements. The reason I haven't
is that I don't see a clean solution. If reinforcement is put in,
I think it should last for a fixed number of turns (say 4 or 5), and
then will have to reinforced again. You also have should have to specify
how much the shield should be reinforced, and from what energy source
(warp engines should be the default). There should also be some sort
of penalty for wimping out and using reinforced shields, like a deduction
in speed or phaser/torpedo effectiveness.
.
The shield bit also brings a question for Mike and Tom: how is time
figured in BEGIN. Like, how long do you folks evision as a turn.
I figure a turn should be about a minute in time, just enough to
see what is going on and get an order off. In addition, the captain
is the only person giving orders...the helmsman might be doing
evasive maneouvers while the navigator plots the next attack while
the science officer is scanning the enemy fleet, while the communications
officer is giving orders to the ally fleet, while the engineer is repairing
damage, while the ....whew! In one minute a lot gets done. Maybe I have
a new request for an enhancement. A library of commands or the ability
to give more than one order in a turn. A way of doing this is to
let everyone do their best all the time, but under certain situations,
the player can use the 'play science' command, and then scan some
ship; on the same turn, 'play navigator' and then plot some course;
and finally 'play helmsman' and fire a ship.
would be for advanced users only.
.
I also like the idea of 'status incomming'. It sounds like a
real life saver. Along with 'status incoming', it would be
nice to have 'helm random' or a 'helm free
, where the helmsman plots a random course to elude any
incoming.
.
Any comments?
tom
cc: Glenn Ironhat
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1012 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 9:27pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
Since I've started to get involved with commenting on Begin, I
figured I'd better examine the tech details of the game a bit more
closely than I have, and I've noticed something that I have previously
missed. Taking a Dreadnought as an example, why, when one of the
three engines is damaged (not destroyed) but the other two are at
100%, does the warp temp rise on all three when travelling at warp 6?
I assume you're spreading the load equally over the three engines, and
if you are, then the two 100% engines shouldn't have rising warp
temps. At least, that's the way I would think it would work. Maybe
you or someone else can clear that up for me.
I'd like to add my voice in support of the idea of user controlled
allocation of damage control. It really only makes sense, I think,
although there should probably be an upper limit to the number of
people you can assign to each area. The saying "too many cooks spoil
the broth" applies to star ships as well as anything else.
Also on that same subject, I think it would be extremely useful to
know what the current state of repair is on something like phaser
banks or torpedo tubes. Flashing X's don't really tell you much more
than the obvious. Perhaps that could be included in the individual
status screens you already have for those systems. It would be even
better on the main damage report screen, but I'll admit to being a bit
at a loss in trying to work that info into the good layout you already
have.
It seems that Glenn Ironhat and others are strong supporters of a
new status screen for incoming weapons. In general, I think this is
an excellent idea, but I keep thinking of one detail that I haven't
seen mentioned so far. How do proximity fuses fit into the scenario?
Are the ships sensors supposed to be able to gain that information?
That's the ONLY way I see to be able to tell, but how would they do
that? The PRESENCE of, say, a torpedo is of course easily detectable,
but it's proximity fuse? It seems to me that this piece of
information would be vital to the status screen, since a torpedo that
has a proximity fuse set to 300 that is going to go by at 400 is no
threat. The only real way to solve this problem would be to say that
the sensors CAN pick up the fuse setting. Perhaps the weapon puts out
a detectable sensor field of its own that the ship sensors could pick
up, a field that only extends out to the range of its proximity. The
only problem with that idea is that it would be awfully generous of
the weapon designer to give the target such easily acquired
information. Anyway, food for thought.
One other suggestion that I've seen that I think is excellent is
to be able to give a helm command that would keep a particular shield
facing an opponent. I have wished for that very thing more often than
I can say.
I have another question on messages related to suggestions for
Begin. If the message is to someone else, do you want yourself and/or
Mike CC'd? Or will you just read them as you go along?
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1014 DATE/TIME: 09-21-88 10:38pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
"Just what is a probe?" One of the problems in suggesting stuff
about aspects of Begin, such as probes, is that none of us really know
the hard details of their configuration. What ARE they made of?
Ultimately, it's up to Mike and Tom to decide. But UNTIL THEY DO, we
all get to blue-sky the situation as we'd like to see it.
There are a couple of reasons I think that anti-matter should be
the destructive ingredient in a probe. First of all, I LOVE probes.
They're a fun weapon. But I've seen a lot of suggestions that their
use should be limited, by limiting the number available. If, as you
say, the main ingredient of a probe is a nuclear warhead, then I don't
see how it is possible to get around the argument that there should be
a limit to the number of probes a ship can carry. Nuclear warheads
simply are not tiny objects.
I think that there should be a LIMITING FACTOR, not a limit. If
you accept the hypothesis that probes are made from anti-matter, then
you have given yourself a method to PRODUCE probes on board, by
draining the anti-matter from the warp engines. And there is your
limiting factor. Say draining anti-matter for one probe takes 1% off
the engines. If you're running a Klingon Frigate, and you make 5
probes, then WHAM, your engines are down to 95%, just like that. Your
max speed goes from 10.5 to 10, and your cruise goes from 6.7 to 6.4.
Now that doesn't seem like to big of a problem really. Ok, make 10
probes. You're engines are down to 90%, max speed is now 9.45 and
cruise is just a shade over 6. You only made 10 probes, but suddenly
a Federation Dreadnought can keep up with you without breaking a
sweat. Better make those 10 probes count, because if you keep making
them he's not even going to have to try to catch up with you.
You know, I don't think even I had thought out this scenario to
this point until now. If this way of doing things would be adopted,
it really would effectively shut down the strategy of running and
dropping probes like mad. You could only make about 1 probe every 5
turns or so without a constant drain on your engines.
Anyway, that's why I support the idea of using anti-matter. It
would not take away the probes, but it would make the method of using
them in combat much more critical.
On the subject of Shield Reinforcement, I agree with you, it's a
tricky situation. I don't see how anybody can say that it shouldn't
be possible, however. Kirk did it too many times. In my opinion,
there shouldn't be any limit to the number of turns you can use it,
nor should there be a penalty in scoring. The penalty within the game
is going to be quite enough, thank you. Take the Klingon Frigate as
an example again.
Say he's got ONE shield knocked down to 40%. Say also that you
accept the idea that a shield can only be doubled at the maximum. Ok,
a Frigate's shield is 175eu at 100%. That means at 40% he's down to
70eu. Doubling it to 80% is going to mean putting in another 70eu.
If that power is going to come from the warp engines, then I don't see
any other way of doing it other than skimming it straight off the top.
At max, his engine is putting out 268eu. Pulling 70 off and putting
it into the shield brings his engines down to 198. Suddenly his max
speed has gone from 10.5 to 7.7 and his cruise from 6.7 to 4.95. All
that for ONE shield for ONE turn. For two shields in the same
situation, max speed is down to 5!!! and cruise is 3.2!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And people are afraid everyone is going to use this constantly? This
is bad enough even without adding in my idea that you're going to risk
damaging the engines if that shield takes a hit stronger than the
un-reinforced shield could absorb.
What do you think?
Joe
cc: Glenn Ironhat
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1018 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 4:10pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Shield Reinforcement THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
In a message to Tom Hackwood, I started laying out some numbers
on the effects of shield reinforcement. I became intrigued with the
numbers I came up with in a short example, so...
.
The following table is an example of just what the practical
effect of shield reinforcement will mean. The table uses the current
stats for each ship as far as warp power and shield energy use is
concerned, and it assumes that the warp power is drawn directly from
the warp engines, not the batteries or reactors. It also assumes that
if a shield needs 75eu, that energy is skimmed directly off the top
of the warp engine's capability.
======================================================================
1 shield 3 shields
reinforced reinforced
Normal from 50% to 100% from 30% to 60%
.
Federation Max / Cruise Max / Cruise Max / Cruise
Ship Speed Speed Speed
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Dreadnought 9.0 / 6.0 7.68 / 5.14 6.62 / 4.44
.
Heavy Cruiser 9.0 / 6.0 7.22 / 4.83 4.95 / 3.32
.
Destroyer 10.0 / 6.7 6.49 / 4.35 3.68 / 2.47
.
Interceptor 12.0 / 10.2 9.0 / 7.65 6.6 / 5.61
=======================================================================
.
Initially, I tried to do the 3 shield example going from 50 to
100% as well, and found that the Destroyer was incapable of doing so.
.
A lot of people have been saying that if shield reinforcement is
implemented, that everyone will use it constantly. Well, in my
opinion, mobility is one of the most critical areas of the game. For
instance, an Interceptor's PRIMARY advantage is speed. But if he's
reinforcing 3 shields only up to 60%, a Dreadnought can run him down.
So how likely is it that that Interceptor is going to constantly
reinforce his shields? Not very, in my opinion.
.
What does everyone else think?
.
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1020 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 5:33pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
I like youe idea on probes. I never considered that the engine did not
have to bring the probe home again. In that case it could be small indeed
and also consider this... Since the engine is a throw away, maybe it
doesn't have to be so safe and controlled !! Perhaps it should be a
runaway type thing where it simply accelerated all the way to the target !
perhaps moving one warp factor faster every cycle till it timed out?
Think that makes any sense??
Shileds...
I have not considered a power feedback if the shield energy was all used
up on a hit. I am not sure that it is realistic. I think it would be
realistic however to cause damage to your ability to reinforce the shield
though. Once a reinforced shield got hit that bad, it could not be
reinforced anymore, or not as well.
Or maybe this... The hit could cause an overload which would burn out the
system doing the reinforcing. However the damage can be repaired at a
much faster rate then if the system had been damaged by a hull hit from
torps or banks. Remember in Star Trek 2, when the Enterprise fired
torps at the Reliant, the warp nacelle was blown completely off the ship.
Not exactly something that damage control could repair.
Perhaps the feedback problem could be repaired after 5 or 10 cycles??
Boarding Parties...
As far as the enemy technology goes...
I figured it was obvious that getting the enemy technology was a good
reason to board an enemy ship and capture it. However I think the ship
would be too damaged to use that technology immediately. Hence, I think
that boarding parties are appropriate in the campaign game ONLY.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1021 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 5:52pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Comment on torp proximity fuses...
Sure it would be nice to know that information but I don't think it can
be known. If a trop is going to pass by you within a radius of 500
then you better shoot at it. I don't think you can afford the luxury
of trying to scan the sucker for an indication of when it might
detonate.
Besides the idea behind the Status Incoming Display was really to know
how many torps were in a cluster and to be able to evade the big clusters
BEFORE thay got close to your ship.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1022 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 6:03pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Shield Reinforcement THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I agree completely that the penalties of shield reinforcement will deter
someone trying to reinforce there shields all the time. AS I stated
before, no ship can just sit there immobile and reinforce its shields.
It would be blown to bits. The only ship that can do that for a short
period of time is the dreadnought. And in my opinion, a dreadnought
should be able to do that. That's why they are built. To go into fleet
action and kick everybody's butt.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1023 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 6:07pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
TO: ALL
I have been wondering about this for a while... Why does the
federation have antimatter torps. They should have photon torps.
What is a photon torp? If you look at the series, a photon torpedo was
VERY powerful. In "THE ULTIMATE COMPUTER" the enterprise completly
destroyed an ore freighter with one torp. In STAR TREK II the Reliant
was blown apart by two or three photon torps. Granted neither ship was
shielded but the fed torps in begin don't blow ships apart after they are
too weak to keep their shields up.
In the episode with Elaine of Troyas, the klingon ship preyed upon the
enterprise until it was able to engage its' warp engines and fire torps.
Then it hit the klingon battle cruiser with 2 or 3 hits against its'
shields and the klingon BC retreated at REDUCED speed.
Perhaps the FED torps should be more powerful and take longer to
load. Like maybe 5 to 10 times as powerful and take 5 to tem times as
long to load.
Think about it... The feds should have some good weapons that will deter
everyone from attacking there ships.
At least the Orions know that they are supposed to run away !!!
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1024 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 9:37pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
1. Probes
I'm glad you like the idea. However, I don't think a probe should
just constantly accelerate. I like the idea of being able to control
the probe, and having the selection of speed determine the longevity.
2. Shields
I think you should always be able to reinforce unless you don't
have any power to reinforce with. I mean, isn't that the point?
Reinforcing when you're hurting?
I like the idea you bring up of having the reinforcement system
being damaged but that damage being repaired faster than normal
damage. Logically it makes sense, since the damage caused in this
situation would probably be along the lines of fuses (or whatever the
23rd century equivalent) being blown, which should be easier to
repair.
3. Boarding Parties
(Sigh) I suppose you're right. It probably would be a bit
impractical to apply brand new technology to your major weapons in the
midst of battle. I support the idea of leaving the whole idea of
boarding parties to the campaign game. (Of course, there WILL be one
of those, won't there?)
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1025 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 9:38pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
1. Proximity Fuses and Status Incoming
I suppose you could dispense with the proximity info and just have
the Status Incoming screen register when a weapon is going to come
within 500. But I don't want to just know how many in a burst. I
want to know the mark they're going to hit (so I'll know what shield
to reinforce!)
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1026 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 9:39pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Shield Reinforcement THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
1. Shield reinforcement
On the contrary, the ONLY time a ship can effectively reinforce
their shields most of the time is when they're sitting still. At that
point, ALL of the warp power would be available to reinforce the
shields, because the ship isn't using any of it to move. Of course,
you'll HAVE to reinforce if you do that because a ship moving at Warp
1 or less is a REAL easy target for torpedoes.
Your point on the Dreadnoughts is well taken, however. Of all the
ships, they would be the best able to sit still and reinforce, which
is, of course, as it should be.
The main thing about this, however, is that the penalty you pay in
mobility and/or weapon recharging is more than sufficient. I can't
remember which camp you're in on this issue, but I definitely do NOT
feel that there should be any kind of time limit on reinforcement.
Look at that chart I did in one of my previous messages to everyone if
you haven't already. If even a Dreadnought is reinforcing only 3
shields for only 30% worth, he's KILLING his mobility. And you can
sit there and reinforce all you want, but if you're facing more than 2
or 3 ships, they're going to rip you apart because it will be so easy
to hit you.
What do you think?
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1029 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 10:01pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
Since when have torpedoes in Begin been made of anti-matter?
Torpedoes in Begin are apparently just EU's, drawn from the reactors.
As to whether this is historically correct or not, I can't really say,
but who cares? The way torpedoes are handled now are one of the basic
fundamentals of the game, and I don't think we want Mike and Tom to
change EVERYTHING about it. I don't know about you, but torpedoes are
my major weapon, and I would be EXTREMELY against the idea of making
their load take longer than it does now.
As far as the idea of making them more powerful, what's the
Romulan advantage supposed to be then? Their shield regen doesn't
really come into play unless they're fighing a relatively weak ship.
But one 8 torpedo blast from a Dreadnought cuts right through those
babies!
No, I definitely feel that the torpedoes should be left as they
are now, for all classes.
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1030 DATE/TIME: 09-22-88 11:41pm
FROM : ERIC CRISP RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
You could use a captured ship as a decoy to lure enemy fire away from
your ships or possibly, if the enemy doesn't know it's been captured to
attack the enemy with their own ship...
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1039 DATE/TIME: 09-23-88 2:20pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Power Usage THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
I've been trying to figure out another chart for shield reinforcement
such as the one I did using warp drive power, only this time using
reactors and/or batteries. Problem is, I can't figure out how you're
distributing the power.
As a test, I took a Fed Dreadnought against a Romulan War Eagle.
First, I disabled the Eagle. Then I got away from him a little bit and
started trying a couple things.
First off, it was clear that extra warp power is contributed to
Residual Power. Does this mean that warp power can be used to charge
tubes and banks? I thought that power came solely from the reactors
and/or batteries.
So, to get the warp power out of the equation, I burned out the warp
engines. (By the way, apparently if you do that, you can never repair
them, correct? I guess that makes sense, but I think you should make
the damage control percentage for the drives go to 0 in that case).
Anyway, at this point, I had 0 warp power and 1000 other power, just
as I would expect. Then I lowered the shields and disabled the charging
on the banks and tubes. I was left with a Residual Power of 230. But
there's nothing left to disable! Where is the other 770eu going?
That's my main question at this point. Where is all the rest of the
power going? The other important question is the one I asked above.
Can excess power from the warp drive be used to power the tubes and
banks?
The reason I want to know all this is that I really support the idea
of shield reinforcement without a time or score penalty, and I think
if people see the actual figures as to the reduction in mobility and/or
weapon charging, they'll see that those things create enough of their
own penalty.
Thanks for your time...
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1050 DATE/TIME: 09-25-88 9:30pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
Regarding shield reinforcements, I agree that if shields are reinforced
in the manner you discribe is not going to be 'abused'. As a matter of
fact, I almost like the the way you discribed it. My only complaint is
that if the player is going to reinforce shields, and if the reinforce-
ment is going to last only one turn, that player is going to be a sitting
duck. The player is going to say 'REIN 1 40' or something, and then
take the plama torp and phasers at the same time. Bad news! BOOM!
What if the reinforcement lasts two turns, and the energy allocated
for the reinforcement is distrubited between the two turns? Then
on the first turn the player can 'REIN', and on the second, blast
the enemy with confidence. This would develop the stratagy of
reinforceing shields and making a run for a full spread of phasers.
The player won't be going too fast (the energy allocated for the
shields decreased the speed), but will have confidence that the
ship will survive a broadside. This will also give some protection
against mines and probes. Reinforce a shield, and run. Kind of like
a mine sweeper or a 'Flail tank' of World War Two. Come to think of it,
it would give the Orions a better chance at suicide runs. Reinforce
shields just before they blow up.
.
As I think about it, just about any way Tom and Mike put in
shield reinforcement, somebody is going to not like it. Oh well,
such is life.
.
Tom
cc: Glenn Ironhat
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1052 DATE/TIME: 09-25-88 9:50pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
About torps...I think torps could be beefed up, but it would
unballance the game if they were made more powerfull with out
something being reduced. I figured that if torps were made more
powerfull, it should be that there are less of them. Instead of a
DN having eight, there should be 6 of them.
.
Speaking of Torps, the most damaging is the Romulan Plasma. They
are slow and have a short life, but believe me, I NEVER want to be
hit by two of them on the same shield. It would HURT even a DN.
This is how powerfull torps really should be. Being hit by
two full salvos should incapicate or cause internal damage to just
about any ship but a DN.
.
Hmmm. As I think about it, I don't think torps should be changed
at all, as it would upset the ballence of the game.
.
Tom
cc: Glenn Ironhat
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1055 DATE/TIME: 09-25-88 10:24pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
I think you missed what I said on my messages. Specifically, I
don't feel there should be ANY time limit on shield reinforcement.
The captain can reinforce as long as he's willing to sacrifice speed
and/or weapon reload. As long as you're reinforcing, you are gaining
the benefit in protection, but sacraficing offensive ability or
mobility. You get something, you lose something. Seems fair to me.
But you make an excellent point. No matter what Tom or Mike do,
SOMEBODY isn't going to like it.
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1056 DATE/TIME: 09-25-88 10:25pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
You're last statement is the one I agree with. Leave the torps
alone. They work just fine the way they are.
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1057 DATE/TIME: 09-26-88 4:29am
FROM : ROB GREENBERG RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
You have an interesting idea about the power of Federation Photon
torpodoes. I agree -- they were much more powerful in Star Trek, and I
think they should be more powerful in Begin.
But really, it never took Kirk any longer to fire photon torpodoes than
phasers. I can remember several times where he fired the Enterprise's
phasers, found them ineffective, and told (whoever?) to arm photon
torpodoes.
A few seconds later, he was told, "Photon torpodoes armed and ready,
sir!". He then fired them immediately. Waiting 5 - 10 times longer
means that you'll have a wait of 15 - 30 'phases' of Begin! That's an
extremely long wait!
But, if you think about how powerful photon torpodoes are, think about
how powerful plasma torpodoes were! One plasma torpodoe severely
crippled the shields on the Enterprise -- and they were up at full power!
Another hit would have ripped through them and gutted the Enterprise.
Wow! That is powerful!
Rob
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1059 DATE/TIME: 09-26-88 11:21pm
FROM : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) RECEIVED : YES
TO : ROB GREENBERG PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Maybe not. How about the shields were just very weak.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1062 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 7:09am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
RE: shield Reinforcement.
If the idea of the reinforcing system's destruction is uncomfortable to
some, how about reduced efficiency for that system?( this may only work
for warp drive...) For instance, if your warp drive was reinforcing a
shield, and the shield was blown down, the warp drive would permanently
(for the scenario, anyway) lose that much output capacity, while
engineerering scrambled to replace the circuitry. Possible, if your
reinforcment came from batteries, or generators, that unit would be
destroyed. (I personally would not allow a ship to be designed where
emergency reinforcement, if it failed, would assure the desruction of the
ship.)
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1063 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 7:19am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
About status incoming...
Your scanning computer could just assume that the incoming torpedoe was
set for it's maximum proximity. (if that makes sense.) IE, if your enemy
is a Fed, then assume any incoming torp has a proximity of 500. Then the
captain has to make the decision about how close it really is, and
whether he can turn out of the path of the torp.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1064 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 8:08am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
I've never advocated that the reinforcing system should DEFINITELY
be destroyed if the shield that's being reinforced is hit harder than
its total energy. Rather, that there should be a random chance
(depending on how much overkill was involved) that the system be damaged
OR destroyed.
As to reduced efficiency, that is already going to be the case if
the system is being used to reinforce the shields in the first place.
You make a good point in that no ship designer worth his salt is going
to design a ship where a reinforcing system will DEFINITELY be destroyed
if the shield being reinforced is destroyed.
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1065 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 8:09am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
Having the Status Incoming screen assume that a torpedo is at its
maximum proximity is an idea that I have advanced before. Glenn Ironhat
has also commented on it, I believe. It's definitely a workable idea.
My only complaint about it is that it takes away from the accuracy of
the Status Incoming screen. I want to know FOR SURE if a torpedo that
is going to come close is going to hit or not. (At least, I would
LIKE to know!)
I think there are arguments both for and against the sensors being
able to pick up the proximity of a torpedo. While I personally would
like them to be able to, I have suggested before that it would be
extremely generous of a weapons designer to allow that information to
be EASILY acquired. So how about this? There is a RANDOM CHANCE that
the sensors can pick up the proximity. The degree of randomness could
be a technical attribute of a particular race. If the sensors could
not determine the proximity, then the maximum would be used.
What do you think? What does anyone else think?
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1067 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 12:26pm
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Power Usage THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I can answer your question on power distribution.
The warp engine power can be used to charge batteries and tubes.
Any warp power left over from the engines is converted into EU's
that power the ship's systems. However, the conversion is not very
efficient. Starting in V1.6, warp energy is converted to EU's with
a seventy-five percent loss. The energy that was "missing" was
lost in the conversion.
Mike
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1068 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 12:34pm
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM HACKWOOD PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
On Torps -- the torps in the game ARE pretty powerful. But, most
people set a high proximity on them. The power of the blast falls
off in a inverse square relationship with the distance of the
blast.
Try this: Find an enemy who can't move much. Lock your tubes
on him with proximity 100. Fire 1 torp at a time at him. Stand back.
Mike
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1069 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 12:40pm
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Random thoughts THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Hello, everyone! Sorry I haven't been saying much on the board
recently. I hope I will be able to devote some more time to it now,
since I have taken care of some pressing matters that were taking
up a bunch of my time.
Thanks to everyone for all the good discussion about probes, shields,
etc. I think you all can see how hard it is to make changes in
the simulation without introducing problems. It is also hard to
decide on matters involving the "reality" of the game when the
reality is all made up anyway! (a REAL starship can't do that!!)
Sounds like boarding parties are not what people are looking for.
Shield reinforcement is. I think we will adopt the following
shield reinforcement rules:
1. It lasts until you turn it off.
2. It takes a lot of energy.
3. You can only go to twice the shield's current power.
4. The energy is used EVERY cycle, even of the shield is
not hit that cycle (you spent it, it's gone!)
5. A shield generator can "overload" if it's reinforced
too much too often (leaving you with NO shield there).
Don't worry, it won't be THAT often. They are rugged
little things.
6. No "backlash" from damaging a reinforced shield. The
energy simply comes from the ship's regular power
distribution network. It is isolated from damage by
incoming energy.
7. You will probably have to slow down to get enough energy
to reinforce a shield (this is the way you "divert warp
power to the shields".
Please don't be afraid of arguing against any of these points.
I am trying for a consensus, without making the game too easy.
I have to root for the enemy ships, too.
Mike
P.S. I had always though of boarding as a DEFENSIVE manuver...
You are almost dead, but send all your guys over to the other
ship to try to take it away from them before they get you.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1071 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 2:43pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Power Usage THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Mike,
Thanks for the info. However, I'm afraid I still have one or two
questions.
ÿ
Take a Fed Dreadnought as an example. With all shields down, all
banks and tubes disabled, and moving at warp 1, essentially you
shouldn't be using ANY energy, correct? The dreadnought in this
example shows 658 for Residual Energy. Battery power cannot be
included in that figure, or it would be at least 720. So, if I
understand it correctly, Residual Power is made up of reactor power
and excess warp power, at a 75% penalty. If 1 unit of warp power is
equivalent to 1 unit of eu, as the damage screen implies, then
Residual Power should read:
ÿ
8 reactors * 35eu each = 280
855 units of warp power * .25 = 213.75
------
494 (rounded)
ÿ
So I come up with a difference of 164 between what it actually
reads and what my math says it should be. The only other thing I can
figure is that 1 unit of warp power is NOT equal to 1 eu. If RP
consists of reactors and excess warp, then warp is supplying 378 eu's
in this particular example. Which means to get that number at a 75%
penalty, warp power must be equal to 1512 eu, or, to put it another
way, 1 unit of warp power is equal to 1.768 eu's (approximately).
ÿ
Am I being stupid, or what? Am I missing something obvious? Am I
prying into the inner workings of your game too much? Please
enlighten me!
ÿ
Joe
ÿ
ÿ
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1072 DATE/TIME: 09-27-88 2:44pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Random thoughts THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Mike
ÿ
Item 1...
Hooray!
ÿ
Item 2...
What exactly do you mean by a "lot"? Seems to me that if a shield
is going to need 50eu to reinforce, then 50eu it is!
ÿ
Item 3...
Sounds good.
ÿ
Item 4...
Of course.
ÿ
Item 5...
Hmmmm. Hadn't thought of that or seen it suggested, but now that
I have, it sounds like a reasonable idea. I would hope that you would
get a warning before the actual event, however. Another argument
against the idea that reinforcement would be used constantly.
ÿ
Item 6...
While I think it is reasonable that the system could be damaged, I
can also see a hundred rationalizations/reasons why it wouldn't be.
ÿ
Item 7...
Seems like this would probably be in tandem with #2. It would
depend on how you do it. If the energy used for reinforcement is
drawn directly from the warp engines, your max speed is definitely
going to go down, as well as your cruise. But what about drawing from
batteries and/or reactors? Will that not be allowed?
ÿ
The important thing is that it appears that shield reinforcement
will be implemented. That's GREAT!
ÿ
Joe
ÿ
ÿ
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1081 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 7:48am
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Sorry about the misunderstanding on time limits...as long as
a captain is willing to pay a price, just about anything should
be possible.
tom
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1085 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 9:44am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
Status incoming display...
I do not remember the message number but somewhere out there after message
600 or so, I submitted a display for this. I shows that information and
some other neat things too, like who fired the shots !!
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1087 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 9:48am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Shield Reinforcement THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
RE: Sheild reinforcement...
Just to clarify, I am in agreement with you on the penalty issue and
on the continuous reinforcement issue. As of a month ago it felt like
I was all alone with that opinion. I am glad to see that others have the
same opinion, i.e. the speed penalty is enough and that no ship would be
able to just sit there and reinforce because it would be blown to bits if
it tried.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1089 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 9:56am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
FED TORPS...
I am aware of the difficulty in changing that particular item. I believe
if you read the ships computer entry on torps, it will descibe them as
antimatter. Perhaps that is meant to be their antimatter equivalent.
As far as taking longer to load... I am more of a strategist and would
perfer to have a weapon which could not be fired frequently but could do
more damage. The battle then becomes more one of positioning,
manuevering, get in closer then blast away. Instead of he shoots, you
shoot, he turns, you turn, etc., etc. until you slowly get closer to
each other and then start hitting each other.
I guess that's why I like to play a fed Destroyer or Intercepter against a
Klingon Dreadnought. All it takes is a single 8 torpedo hit and the
battle is over. So you have to avoid being hit and work your way in close
so that you can use all your weapons.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1090 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 10:06am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : ERIC CRISP PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Boarding parties THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Eric,
In order to do that, you need to repair the ship so that it can be
perceived as a threat. If the ship is almost destroyed, I wouldn't
waste my time shooting at it while there was a healthier enemy ship out
there that could damage me. I would first defeat the other ship, then
come back and finish off the damaged vessel.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1091 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 10:11am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Power Usage THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joe,
I think that the power to reinforce the shields or charge weapons can
come from ANY source the ship has available to it. This would mean that
if shields are being reinforced, that it is very conceivable that the
ship could use the batteries in order to recharge the phasers. I think
this is great. We finally can use the batteries for something other than
keeping the ship powered for one more turn until they run out.
After the phasers are charged the batteries would automatically go into
recharge mode. In a prolonged battle the batteries could eventually be
completely discharged and the captain will half to make a decision about
conservation of power. I think the game will be a lot more "FASCINATING"
to play that way.
I would prefer to be able to control ships power enough so that I could
reinforce the shields with the warp drive and then quickly shift that
over to the reactors and batteries so that I could move quickly to a new
position. Then once I was in my new position I could switch back over to
warp drive reinforcement and the reactors could recharge the batteries.
This doesn't all have to be manual control either. We could simply say
reinforce shield 1 in the most efficient manner. That would take care
of where the power comes from.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1093 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 11:07am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : ROB GREENBERG PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Rob,
Agreed, Torps should be more powerful. I think both the Plasma torps
and the FED torps. It is true that the Trops were armed right away but
they could have already been charged up ! If it took 20 - 30 cycles to
charge torps I think I might have some charged up all the time too.
Arming them would only take a couple of cycles to set the proximaty
fuse on the thing.
If begin is to keep the flavor of Star Trek then we could all at least
consider changinf things that don't fit in.
We never really saw the enterprise ever try to reload its torps and
fire again did we ??
And even so, it could be possible to carry say 10 or 20 torps that are
ready to fire i.e. already loaded but not armed. Then when you use up
that supply you could continue to fire torps only after loading them
yourself which could take several minutes real real time ( cycles game
time ).
I don't think this is such a rediculous suggestion. And yes I know it
would require changes in the way some other weapons or shields work, but
perhaps we should consider this.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1098 DATE/TIME: 09-28-88 8:23pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I said earlier that I think that we really should leave the weapons
alone for the time being...not only becaues both Mike and Tom are
going to have enough troubles coding ver 2.0 and interim versions,
but becuase of the ballance that currently exists in the game.
.
In the intersts of the discussion, I'll throw in my thoughts.
The Fed Torps are beefy...if you get lucky hit all eight torps
on a week shield. But compared to a Romulan Plasma that was
fired at 5000Km that hit the same shield, the Plama torp is going
to do a LOT more damage. It may not really be that way in the code
or in other's experince, but that's the way it seems to me.
Two good shots with a Plasma Torp on the same shield in a short
period of time is enough to make a DN start worrying. One
is good enough to destroy an Escort (if you get lucky enough
to hit it).
.
If there is to be a change in the Fed Torps, they should be
fewer, be more powerful, and take a shorter period of time
to load. A Fed DN with 5 Torpedos MkIX should be at least
as powerful as a Fed DN with 10 of the current MkVIII torps.
.
It might be an idea if the torps decayed with distance. Maybe
the torps ought to work similar to the way the Plasma or XPlasma
torps work. Say for the first 5000Km the torps are 200% of what
they are now, from 5001 to 15000Km they are the same power, and
>+ 15000 they are 75% as powerful.
.
Let me know of what you think.
.
Tom
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1103 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 7:44am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
RE: Status Incoming & proximity fuses.
1: If you make the assumption that any torpedoe which explodes via
proximity fuse, has a sensor field to detect if the target is within the
appropriate range, then you can assume that your sensors/scanners can
detect that field. However, That does not mean your computer can
determine the critical range (unless the size of the sensor field varies
with the proximity fuse. A stupid idea). It does mean that you
can possibly deflect or disrupt that sensor field, using Electronic
Counter Measures.( a nasty feature, greatly complicating the game)
Your computer should just tell you that a torp MIGHT hit. Another
variable to throw at your computer is later course changes. He doesn't
know what you'll be doing in the near future, and so accounts for it by
assuming maximum proximity fuse setting. (He might tell you how much you
have to change course to avoid the torp.)
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1104 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 7:55am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Orions THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Someone, way back when, suggested that Orions come equipped with a
variety of weapons, taken from other races. I'd like to second this.
I realize it would complicate the programming, but you could have the
Orions tactics reference the other races tactics, modified for the Orions
(usually) greater speed. Think of it, Romulan torps , with thier warp
drives.
This idea came, I think, from the Star Fleet Battles Orions, which have
a fixed number of spaces available to add other races weapons. They had
thier standard weapons (phasers and drones, mostly) but thier "Main
Weapons" were usually from another race.
Whadddya think?
Bryan Donaldson
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1107 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 9:39am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Tom,
The shields may have been very weak but consider that the outpost or
base ( whatever it was ) that the roms attacked was also completely
pulverized. My impression from the reaction of the crew of the Enterprise
was that the Base's shielding was stronger than that of the ships!! The
reason the ship survived was that it started running before the torp
was fired and the torp had lost a lot of its strength in the chase.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1108 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 9:43am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Shields...
After thinking about the power feedback situation I think that it should
be minimal. I suggested earlier that if the system was damaged, that it
could be repaired more quickly than normal. Someone else agreed saying
that the nature of the damage would be blown fuses/circuit breakers. This
would fit in with an easy repair.
Perhaps also, if the shield is damaged when it is reinforced then also
it should not be possible to reinforce any shields until the damage can
be repaired. This would simulate a damaged power distribution system
rather than a damaged power system itself. I think the ship should be
built with protection in the power distribution system which would prevent
power feedback damaging the engines or anything else supplying power.
A simple diode can do that. It would only allow power to flow one way.
Glenn I,
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1109 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 9:52am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
INCOMING TORPS...
I think you shouldn't be concerned whether the torp is going to pass
within 500, 300 or 100 units from your ship. I think you don't have that
luxury. I think that anything that is going to pass within 500 units
distance from my ship is going to be blasted with phasers if I can.
I don't think it is reasonable to scan a torp moving at warp 27 or so
and figure out what its fuse is set to. I think by the time the torp
was close enough to you for your sensors to be able to discern any
difference between one torps reading and another, it would be too late to
do anything about it. In other words, I don't think you could scan for
that information unless the torp was just a few meters away if even then.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1110 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 9:59am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Mike,
In that case we should be able to set our torps at a prox. of 0. which
would mean contact with the enemy shield. If that could make the fed
torps rip through the klingon shields as they did in some shows I would
be more satisfied with the feel of the game.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1111 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 10:04am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Random thoughts THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Note on item 6 "the power feedback/backlash".
Please read my comment in a previous note. I think the feedback could
indeed cause blown circuit breakers or fuses which would take several
cycles to repair (at least 4) which would mean that the shields could not
be reinforced until then.
I like all the suggestions. I think you put everybodies ideas together well.
I don't understand what you mean about REAL starships though. !!
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1112 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 10:18am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Communications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
You know, with all this talk about boarding parties I realzed that we
should be able to damage a ships communications system. Orders could not
be given to ally ships or received from them. This would mean that if a
ship was boarded you would be able to suspect it if they did not answer
your call !!
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1113 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 10:22am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Status incoming display THREAD : NO
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Everyone,
Please look at message 816 regarding the status incoming display and
comment on it.
Thanks, Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1114 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 10:23am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: game balance THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
To: All
I will submit sonthing later in more detail on this, but for now consider
that each nation should have an advantage/disadvantage against the others
This is what kept them from clearly defeating each other.
The ROMS had plasma torps but they had weak shields.
The FEDS torps should be able to rip though the Klingon shields.
The Klingon Phasers should be very effective against Fed shields.
Fed phasers should be very effective against ROM shields.
Rom shields although weak are able to stand up the the FED Photon torps.
Klingon torps can do very well against rom shields.
ETC.
Think of the flavor and startegies this would add to the game. We can do
this and still retain a game balance and be true to the series !!!
Comments please !!!
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1115 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 11:05am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
It would seem that nobody else is concerned whether a torpedo is
going to directly hit you or not. As for myself, I am not greatly
concerned either. It would just be nice to know. But I readily agree
that there are numerous problems with the idea that the "sensors"
(what a broad term) can determine a torp's proximity. I believe I
suggested that it would be very generous of a weapons designer to have
this information readily available to the intended target.
So, if a torp will come within its max proximity to your ship, the
Status Incoming screen should pick it up. Everybody agree on that
one?
ÿ
Joe
cc: Glenn Ironhat
===============================================================================
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1117 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 11:06am
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
You've made several comments based on tahe original series. I
think that the series is an important starting point for the factors
in the game.
But let's not forget the inconsistencies of the series. The
clearest example I can think of is the maximum speed of the
Enterprise. How many episodes can you think of where Scotty was
SCREAMING at Kirk because Kirk was asking for Warp 8? How many others
can you think of where he was quite calm when the Enterprise was going
Warp 10 or 12. I can even remember one episode where they SUSTAINED
Warp 14 for quite a while, and Scotty was only mildly worried.
The point of all this is that I don't think you can take a single
episode's events and magnify them out as the way it should be all the
time. Is the way that torpedoes stand in the game now so bad? I
don't think so. The Romulans have kick-ass power but a slow rate of
fire, and pretty much everyone else has modest power and a fairly
quick rate of fire.
When you talk about modifying torpedoes, you're talking about
changing the most basic offensive element of the game. Thus, changing
torpedoes even relatively moderately will quite possibly change the
entire character of the game. I'm not sure that that's a good idea.
Comments?
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1119 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 12:43pm
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well, there is no reason why we couldn't do that. It would be VERY
hard to hit somebody, but it would work!
Try some 100 prox torps, though, to see if you like it. By the
way the game reacts to the fuses, there really isn't much difference
between a 100 prox and a zero prox.
Mike
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1120 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 12:47pm
FROM : MIKE HIGGINS RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Random thoughts THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I meant that somewhat sarcastically. I have heard many people (not
on this board!) try to explain the "physics" behind faster than
light travel, time travel, etc. Since we can't do these things
(yet?) I think people should be free to make up any rules about
them that they want. Sometimes "experts" try to make the physical
laws in the system we know (Einstein's relativity) apply to systems
we can only (at present) speculate on. It is especially amusing
when people try to use Einstein's laws to determine the behavior
of faster than light objects. Since Albert expressly FORBIDS any
object from travelling faster than light, none of his laws can be
assumed to apply to something that does.
Anyway, I always refer to this phenomenon as talking about a "real
starship". Since there are no starships, just what is a "real"
one. A starship should be allowed to do anything that anyone wants.
When a real one does come along, we will find out who was right
and who was wrong. This does not mean that a game like begin
should not be internally consistent (and we try to be), it just
means that everyone's thoughts on what a starship (or shield
generator, etc.) can do are valid. If someone thinks that a starship
should be able to go warp -9 (and there are plenty that do!),
no one can offer any "physics" reason why it can't.
Anyway, I do not think that anybody on the board is guilty of this.
It is good to make reasons why thing should/shouldn't work in the
game. I am just preaching tolerance. I am also implying that
the best reason for changes to the game may not be "physics",
but playability. The best reason for a change in the game is
that it makes the game more fun to play.
Well, I don't know why I launched into all this. I guess I am
just in a philosphical mood. I am glad that people are
contibuting so many ideas -- it is hard to guess what people
would like to see in the game. The board makes it a lot
easier. I know the intense discussion on shields on the board is
what motivated me to add the code.
Once again, I am not implying that people on this board are
guilty of the "REAL starship" syndrome. Usually, the people are
on TV, proving how smart they are by pointing out the "violations
of physics" in science fiction movies and books. As you can tell,
they really grip me! :-)
Happy beginning,
Mike
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1124 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 11:05pm
FROM : GORDON HAFF RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I think we have to be very careful when we start talking about
acceleration. We can't talk about conventional physics or we'd have to
be firing our engines on the opposite vector to slow the ship. I think
of all of this warp stuff and some sort of active impulse to be applied
to keep the ship on higher planes of warped space; when the power gets
doused, the ship slips back to normal.. All very pseudoscientific, but
you have to think of it in some way like that. Of course, it doesn't
really explain torpedoes, but probes in this model are really little
ships.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1125 DATE/TIME: 09-29-88 11:15pm
FROM : GORDON HAFF RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FOG OF WAR THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Not to introduce another variable into these discussions (though I guess
that's what I'm doing) but something which strikes me as rather
unrealistic about a sophisticated strategy game such as Begin is the
extensively detailed information available on the enemy. You know every
little last thing about the exact state that everyone of his systems is.
It strikes me that it would be an intersting variant to have a fog of war
option. One level would be like it is now. Hardest would be very
limited information. This may go somewhat against Tom and Mike's
philosophy about artificial difficulty levels, but it's a factor which
wargame designers are always grappling with.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1128 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 5:10am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
RE: Torps.
I think that the torps (and other weapon systems) for most of the races
are adequate. My friends and I have long discussed the various
inconsistencies in the ST series. To modify a race's weapons based on the
"facts" in a single episode would lead to repeated changes in the
programming, as people bring out thier favorite episode.
Additions, based on new info,(like the movies) can be implemented as the
authors see fit. IE, have a nebula: shields don't work, lock on is
impossible, fire when you get a target.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1130 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 5:40am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : YES
TO : GORDON HAFF PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FOG OF WAR THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
RE: fog of war. Good Idea. Possible this can be selected in the
configuration section.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1131 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 5:44am
FROM : BRYAN DONALDSON RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Status Incoming Display THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I like the format shown in #816 for STatus INcoming display.
To make it use less screen, you could have the code assume that any torps
within a certain distance of each other, and targeted on the same ship,
are a group, as in MkVIII(6) for 6 torps.(as shown in the display.)
Since you can scan your enemies, (barring Fog of War, above), you really
don't need to know who fired the torps. That way you could group the
torps from multiple ships.
Bryan
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1133 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 9:56am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Why not have shield reinforcemets come ONLY from battey power? It puts
a reasonable upper limit on how long you can do it (until your batteries
need to be recharged), and it gives them a purpose in life. It would
also, I think, give the Romulans and Orions a bit more of an edge (all
those batteries....), BTW, while we're talking about Orions - they run
away too damn much!!!! It's hard to set up a good scenario using Orions
because you never know when your whole fleet will just head south on you,
leaving you to face the 3d Romulan Cohort by yourself. Granted that
pirates probably WOULD run, but on the other hand, they wouldn't be in
fleet action either (if they could help it, that is). Thus the need for
freighters, liners, bases, etc.
---JB
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1134 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 10:11am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Shield Reinforcement THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Why do you assume that the shied reinforcement HAS to come from warp
power? What about my reactors? What about my worthless batteries?
JB
cc: Glenn Ironhat
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1136 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 10:17am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : TOM NELSON (SYSOP) PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
No, the Enterprise didn't have weak shields...remember at one point Spock
reported that NOMAD had just hit the Enterprise with a forc equivalent to
30(!) photon torpedoes....and he further reported that they could only
take 3(!) morh hits before their shields fell. I think the main problem
was that Star Trek wasn't all that internally consistant, espically when
it came to ship capabilities. I could go on at length, but won't take up
the board time...
JB
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1137 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 10:30am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: game balance THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Sounds hellishly complicated....
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1138 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 10:33am
FROM : JOEY BROWNING RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Communications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
While we're talking about things that break, how about that invulnerable
impulse engine that every ship comes equipped with? Right now you can
blast a ship into a totl lifeless hulk with NO power or crew, and it can
still do lightspeed-warp 1. What miraculous device is responsible for
this? I want my whole ship made out of that stuff, as it seems to be
indestructable!
JB
cc: Tom Nelson
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1142 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 11:30am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Yes there wer some inconsistencies in the series. I agree with you that
the series is a good starting point. I don't think we should rule out
changing things if game balance can be preserved and the game can be more
interesting (strategy wise). If you can, please imagine this game
according to the game balance message I sent ( sorry don't have the number
right now) and also imagine never having played Begin before. Then how
would you think of it? Would it be better, worse, the same ? I think it
would add more to the game because each race would clearly have a
different strategy to use against each other race.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1143 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 11:34am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOE TROUBA PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Forgot to comment on Warp 10, 12 and 14.
Warp 14 was acheived because the antimatter flow valves had been tampered
with. The ship's engines were on wide open, and the ship was about to
explode ( the engines were anyway ) when Scotty was able to cut off the
flow.
When Nomad changed the efficiency of the flow controls, again the ship
surged with power but at the risk of tearing the hull apart.
Why didn't the ship come apart at warp 14 you ask ?? Well because they
were going in a straight line.
The only time a warp 11 speed could be sustained was when the ship was
modified with alien technology by the Kelvans.
So there was some inconsistency but with explanations as well.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1144 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 11:41am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Mike,
I am a 100 prox torp user. I only use 500 when the enemy is dodging and
then I also use a dispersion factor. AND also when the enemy has small
shields anyway like an Escort.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1145 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 11:45am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : MIKE HIGGINS PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Random thoughts THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE ARE NO REAL STARSHIPS ? I see them on TV each
week.
I was just kidding too. Agree with you though on people who say things
can't be done just because we don't know how to do them.
Also, my reason for discussing changes to the weapons systems was to
improve the play of the game. Not to take away the balance that exists now.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1146 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 11:51am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : GORDON HAFF PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FOG OF WAR THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
FOG of WAR.
I have thought about this as well. There are some things we can KNOW
about the enemy ships such as there current shield strength. But perhaps
there are other thins that we should not be able to see.
One thing that comes to mind regarding shields is How do we know if the
enemy shields are at full power or not.
Maybe we could lower one shield to 20% power and then raise it up all the
way and even reinforce it if we suspected that the enemy has positioned
himself so that he could get a lock on that shield.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1148 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 11:57am
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : BRYAN DONALDSON PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Status Incoming Display THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Bryan,
I absolutely want to know WHO is shooting at me and WHO is shooting at
my escorts. I want to be able to defend them and order them to defend
me.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1149 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:00pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Shield Reinforcement THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
I repeat...
Shield Reinforcement power comes from ALL available sources of power.
Batteries are automatically tapped into when needed to recharge banks
or anything else WHILE you are reinforcing. If your batteries start
dropping off, then you start losing the ability to recharge weapons or
reinforce shields.
On an undamaged ship, naturally as soon as t=you stop reinforcing
you will be able to recharge the batteries.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1150 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:04pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: FED TORPS THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
In this case you could also argue the the ROM Plasma torps were VERY
powerful. Remember it took all there power to fire their weapon !!!
And speaking about PLASMA TORPS...
I think they might be more interesting in the Play Balance issue (that
I admit, I am making it an issue) if they were more powerful like double
or triple strength BUT they lost there punch QUICKLY.
An Intercepter at warp 12 should be able to go in fire all banks and then
out run the torp for long enough that when it hits, it does not destroy the
shield. I would have to play with the numbers a bit to come up with
something that would be reasonable and would work. Perhaps the WAR
EAGLE should have that kind of plasma torp. The other ships would have
something that was not as powerful but was not as difficult to use.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1152 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:11pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: game balance THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Well we could work up to that level of play perhaps.
Each nation should have DIFFERENT strengths AND weaknesses and the more
different, the more interesting the game can be.
Klingon phasers were blue not red. Sounds like a different technology
to me.
Glenn I.
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1153 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:14pm
FROM : GLENN IRONHAT RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Communications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
The impulse engines are made out of the same stuff that each airplane's
BLACK BOX is made out of. That thing survives anything. I wish they
would build the whole plane out of that stuff !!
Course it wouldn't be able to fly....
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1154 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:19pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: status incoming display THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn,
Your Status Incoming screen looks pretty good. One other thing
that might be nice to see on it would be the percentage drop on the
shield that it's going to hit if it actually does hit.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1155 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:20pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GORDON HAFF PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Gordon,
I think it would be detrimental to the game to get all involved in
the acceleration issue. Read Mike Higgin's message on the realism
issue, and I think you'll see that everything about this game and any
other space game is completely arbitrary. If you accept the current
laws of physics which say that faster than light travel is impossible,
then in a game that accepts the possibility that it is should be able
to do just about anything it wants too.
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1156 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 12:21pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : JOEY BROWNING PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: Begin Modifications THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Joey
This is also a reply to 1134.
ÿ
One message you say why not have shield reinforcement come only
from battery power, the next you ask why I say it can only come from
warp power. Hmmm...
ÿ
I DON'T feel that the power should come from only the warp
engines. I think you should be able to pull power from all three
sources, batteries, reactors, and warp engines. I also think a
combination of these sources should be allowed.
ÿ
I was using warp power as an example to try to convince other
people that there shouldn't be a time limit or any other kind of
penalty on shield reinforcement, that the use of the power from these
sources was going to impose enough of its own penalty. I did my
examples with warp power because I can't figure out the exact power
distribution from the batteries and reactors (are you reading this,
Mike?), and thus couldn't determine what the exact penalty would be in
performance.
ÿ
As it is, I think Mike and Tom have already decided how they are
going to allow shield reinforcement, so we'll probably just have to
wait and see.
ÿ
As to your comments about the Orion race, yes it is a pain to have
a lot of your fleet run away like that. I've been playing a few games
taking Assassins and Raiders (they only have phasers) out against
Federation Dreadnoughts. I've found that generally, the ones who are
going to run are going to do so within the first three turns of the
game. After that, the ones who are left will generally fight to the
finish. My best record so far is two DN's against 9 Raiders and 7
Assassins, with 2 of the Raiders and 1 of the Assassins running
immediately. Even more of a problem than the ones who run away is the
fact that the ones who stay won't take orders worth a damn. I tried
taking on three DN's, and I got two of them, but the third had time to
get far enough away that he just ripped up my fleet with his
torpedoes. I tried to split my forces to jump on all three at once,
but they didn't want to do that!
ÿ
Joe
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1159 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 5:26pm
FROM : TOM HACKWOOD RECEIVED : NO
TO : ALL PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: everything THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Sheilds- Judging by Mike's last message, he knows what he is going
to do. I really don't have a comment right now, but maybe later.
Torps- Leave them alone for the time being. It might be a good idea
later to add the decay factor (ie: super strong for a short distance,
but weakening over distance/time).
Damage- Aside from the indestructable impulse engines and the
communications, I wonder if it was possible to affect the turning
radius of the ship as well. This is tied closely with the speed of the
ship, but if a ship is damaged, the captain should also be worried
about inertia ripping off a nacale or two in a turn.
Boarding parties- Only in a campaign game.
Physics- Who cares? As long as the game is FUN!
Game 'Flavor'- There seems to be at least two groups here. One wants
a computerized 'SFB', and the other wants 'Star Trek'. There could
be a third group, the 'Beginners'. I kinda like the game as it is.
If I was going to change it, I would add more of a 'Star Trek' flavor.
But the issues of inconsisancies come up. If a Star Trek flavor is
used, then it would be necessary to chose which instances are relevant
to the game. If SFB is used, then which rules are to be used.
Game Ballance- I like the idea of having one groups weapons be more
favorable against a different nation. It would add a more conventional
sense of stratagy, due to knowledge of the enemy's fleet.
Speaking of which...I like the idea of the Fog Of War. It should be
configurable as well.
A New Idea- Could it be possible that Begin has what I would call
'ship files'? A ship file would be a file containing the all the
information about a ship. A seperate program could be released to
registered users that would allow changes to these files. This
would give people to change the ships directly, effectivly allowin
g us to design and build ships. This would also be a way of testing
the ballance of the game without Tom and Mike compiling and
recompiling and recompiling etc. That could get boring on a 386.
Eventually we could pit each other's Ship Files in a contest, kind
of like CROBOTS. Which brings in another idea. With ship files,
we could play against the computer...or take our own designs and
put them against each other, and let the computer figure who has
the best ship. Just so everybody doesn't build super-dreadnaughts,
there should be class limitation, defined by how much material and
money is available. For simplicity, it would be on a point basis
similar to Star Fleet Battles Commander's SSD manuals.
Programming- Glenn, I just thought of an idea. Hey Mike & Tom,
you guys reading this? What if you release the source code
for an older version, say 1.4? You could sell it for a small
sum to registered users (with some sort of a licence agreement
that fits your liking). Another idea is to open up a new
section, dedicated to C programming.
Gotta go!
===============================================================================
MESSAGE: 1161 DATE/TIME: 09-30-88 10:40pm
FROM : JOE TROUBA RECEIVED : YES
TO : GLENN IRONHAT PRIVATE : NO
SUBJECT: game balance THREAD : YES
FOLDER : B, "Begin/Clockwork Software"
Glenn
First of all, speaking in a overall sense, I don't agree that
advantages/disadvantages of technology are what kept the Federation,
Romulans, and so on from destroying each other. It has a lot more to
do with overall strategic position, fleet strength, political climate
in the respective nation's home worlds, and allinances. But to
address your suggestion on a more basic level...
ÿ
The outcome of your suggestion would be that in any particular
battle, one side would be favored to win if he used intelligent
tactics.
ÿ
Don't you see, the reason Begin works is that the major offensive
weapons are basically equal. The exception is the Romulans with their
Plasma torpedoes, but they pay a HUGE penalty in speed. Two out of
three of their ships are slow as hell, and the one that isn't doesn't
HAVE plasma torps.
ÿ
If you start changing the weapons to give advantages and
disadvantages, and that's ALL you change, then I am going to be able
to tell you which side will win, given that both sides play
intelligently.
ÿ
Two Federation Interceptors against six Romulan War Eagles? Have
the Interceptors run in quick and hammer one or two of the Eagles.
Then run for a bit and let the remaining Eagles bunch up, dropping
probes to blow up their plasmas. Then when the Interceptor's shields
are firmed up from the first round (they shouldn't be down too far in
the first place), leap back in to phaser range and kill off the rest
of them. Given your idea that Fed phasers should be particularly
effective against Romulan shields, that should work pretty easily,
since the inverse must be true, that Romulan phasers aren't as
effective against Fed shields. How about one on one? That Eagle
won't have a prayer.
ÿ
Do you see my point? The way it is now, the scenario I describe
above wouldn't work well, if at all, because while they're in phaser
range, the Eagles are going to hurt the Interceptors just as bad as
the Interceptors hurt them.
ÿ
What I guess it boils down to is that if you're going to start
changing the essential equality of the weapons, you're not going to be
able to stop there. You're going to have to start changing shield
regen, max speed, number of phasers/tubes and on and on, in an attempt
to regain what the game already has. Basic equality.
ÿ
Is this long winded enough for you? Can you tell yet that I don't
agree with you? (grin)
ÿ
Comments?
ÿ
Joe
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